Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: Brynjaminjones on December 07, 2015, 07:53:35 PM
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I've had a couple of MOT failures on the XJ that I want to run past you guys before I spend money!
The CO readings were too high at idle and fast idle, whilst the lambda value was high (just!) for the 2nd fast idle test.
Will this be cause by the upstream O2 sensor (I had a new cat last MOT)?
It also failed because apparently (in their words) the "Ball joint has excessive play centre (steering arm)".
The guy said that it looked like it had been stuffed with grease in the past because of this. I would guess this was a couple of years ago when I took it to Dutch for some grease to get rid of a steering clunk!
Does anybody know exactly which part he's on about though?
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Bryn,
I've no idea on the CO stuff, far too high tech for me, others will respond.
The steering joint sounds like the one on the steering box end of the steering arm, if you can't find the play by wiggling it take it back to MOT guy and ask him which one, either way it's a consumable part and an easy job.. have a go yourself maybe?
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. Whatever it needs I will probably be doing myself. The XJ is now home with me.
I did ask the MOT man for a description but didn't understand what he was saying. I should have just asked him to show me!
If it is what you say, is it a case of replacing a rubber bushing-type-thing?
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Normally a sensor playing up causes the fail on emissions. Do you have a scanner?
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It's basically a track rod end, a small ball joint. Remove the split pin from the nut, and then undo the nut. To break the taper on the joint there are various techniques, whack with a hammer or use a ball joint splitter, as you're replacing the joint you can whack it as much as you want....
Just make sure you know which one it is! :greggmo:
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Thanks Paul, I'll get underneath soon to confirm which one it is!
James, unfortunately I've not got a scanner so can't check for faults.
I have been thinking though - is there any likelihood that the emisssions could be to do with the Jeep not having been used for months, and maybe having the battery disconnected? I'm wondering if giving it a good thrashing might clear things out?
Also, what's the legality on driving without tax whilst trying to get it MOT ready? It's fully inaured, but don't you need an MOT to get tax?
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XJ has stood for a good wile prob need a good run to blow out the crap
get the engine up to temp and give it some good revs to clear it out
check the air filter and replace if dirty that may just be enough to drop the emissions
the ball joint in simple i use one of these normally
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-AK381-Ball-Joint-Remover-Splitter-19mm-Jaw-Capacity-for-Cars-Light-Vans-/201472198105?hash=item2ee8adc5d9:g:rZIAAOSwKIpWA8jR
when your unsrcew it from the rod count the turns so you screw it back in to the same length.
you can only drive it to a booked mot or repair shop
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ball joint holds the wheel hub in place
track rod end is the "ball joint" bit on the end that connects to the hub
Dave your a limp wristed fairy, hit the thing with a hammer and it will pop, if it doesnt pop then get a bigger hammer
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Excuse my lack of correct terminology, but I think I've established that it's the joint on the end of the bar that comes from the pitman arm, at the opposite end to the pitman arm.
It looks like there were actually several advisories on this since 2008, but knowing the previous owner (my dad) it would never have been fixed unless it failed!
I've also managed to order an oem O2 sensor from RockAuto for £50 express shipping
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Dave your a limp wristed fairy, hit the thing with a hammer and it will pop, if it doesnt pop then get a bigger hammer
:wave-fingersmiely:
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That'll be the 'Drag link'......in US speak.....
Maybe we call it the ' steering rod.'....
I've been hovering toooo long onPirate obviously!
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its the bit at the end that's works fine but will fail an mot if the rubber has split
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Back when the 1 Tonne was a more normal vehicle I replaced the rubber boots on the balljoints, and drag link with harder shiny plastic versions from Daystar.....they last and last..... Just a thought :icon_biggrin:
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I've just had a chance to get under the XJ, and it seems to actually be the end of drag link that attaches to the pitman arm. It had yellow chalk on it, so I assume that's what needs doing. I couldn't feel any play in it myself, but then I was freezing so didn't fiddle for long!
Where should I look for this, and what is the correct thing to search for? So many of these words seem different from the US, and all of these ball joints look very similar to me!
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To test for movement get under the car so you can see all the joints and get a friend to turn the steering wheel back and forth left to right. You shoul see movement / wobble / 'jump' in the joint that is worn.
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Cheers James, I figured it needs replacing to keep MOT man happy anyway, so got the correct part number by calling Jeepey Mart.
I've ordered one for £17.99, as well as a tool for it because I know I'll be useless, and also a grease gun!
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Despite what Dave69 says I've never managed to pop one using the hammer hitting technique, I use a 'pickle fork' (US slang) ball joint removal tool and BFH.
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never used a pickle fork, using a hammer to shock it free has always worked. it all depends on what size hammer you use of coarse.
pop it out of the pitman arm and move the threaded bit around, it sould be smooth and tight not rough and juddery as it moves
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I have had success using TWO hammers...... Same principle just seems to work well hitting it both sides at once.....
Heavy Metal..... :icon_super:
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Not having done a wild amount of ball joints (but more than enough or me!) my experience might be slightly limited. However i have learned a few things VERY quickly over the years.
First is never use a "pickle fork" type ball joint separator. They have a habit of slipping and if you have just clouted it with a 4 lb lump hammer it could slip in any direction, including straight through the sump! It could also annhialate other suspension components. Oh yeah, and even when they do work, they are a "sh!t or bust" tool.
Second is squirt a little WD40 or similar o the thread/taper before starting to remove the nut. Depending on the type of nut it will either be a castellated nut with a split pin (cotter pin to our US cousins) or a Nyloc nut. Once you've loosened the nut, wind it up to the top of the thread where it can be removed with finger pressure but still protects the thread, and give it a few thunmps with a hammer in the direction you want the taper to go. This might appear to have no effect but does in fact help to shock the taper free, making the use of a ball joint separator easier. The one linked to earlier in the thread should be fine for most things on a Jeep.
Next, lube the threads of the bolt and pivot on the ball joint separator - this makes life much easier!
Once the separator is on and tight, tap the outer part (wwhere the taper goes through) of the joint - sometimes this is enough to finish what the separator started, other times it just helps.
If it is still reluctant, take the tension off the separator and give the end of it a tap with the hammer - there is an extra section where the bolt goes through for this. It helps to seat the separator and get it back into position for the next bite.
Retighten the separaor and usually the taper will now pop easily. Remove the nut from the end of the thread/taper and you're done removing it, apart from winding it off the drag link, track rod or wherever it is coming from.
All this might seem like it's being too kind to something that is only going to be replaced anyway, the big point is if you can't shift it, you can still use it while some more WD40 or similar does its job. Also minimises any "collateral" damage from getting too brutal!
Once you've fitted the new joint, don't forget to grease all the ball joints (even the new one) with the grease gun and wipe off any excess.
Hope that useful, one of my big things is "prevention is better than cure" hence taking the amount of care on removal, greasing the other ball joints (to increase their life and - oh yeah - it helps the steering too! :D ) and i've always found that fixing one thing in good time is better than having to fix several because they've all been neglected - much easier on the back and especially the wallet!!!
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Despite what Dave69 says I've never managed to pop one using the hammer hitting technique, I use a 'pickle fork' (US slang) ball joint removal tool and BFH.
i routinely use the hammer method
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You definitely have the knack from years of experience. I need more practice!
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I got around to trying this today, and so far I'm struggling.
I tried using the ball joint tool like Dave posted further up, but it threads all the way in before the ball joint budges.
I think I'm going to try wedging something between it and the top of the joint next time I try, and hope that works!
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Also, the new O2 sensor arrived in two days from the US, and I've taken the Jeep out and given it a good thrashing so hopefully emissions should be okay!
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I would suggest an old spanner or piece of angle iron/flat bar or similar between the top of the ball joint thread (don't forget to leave the nut on the end of the thread for protection) and the ball joint separator.
Good luck!
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Cheers, this could be a perfect use for my Poundland spanners that I once bought in desperation!
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Despite what Dave69 says I've never managed to pop one using the hammer hitting technique, I use a 'pickle fork' (US slang) ball joint removal tool and BFH.
i routinely use the hammer method
:imwitstupid:
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Right, a spanner between the jaws of the joint separator and the ball joint popped straight out in about 30 seconds with an enormous bang. I've also swapped O2 sensors no problem.
I've realised that the new joint I've ordered is wrong though - the thread is the wrong way and the thread diameter is too small. Does anyone know the correct part number? It's the ball joint that attaches straight to the pitman arm.
One of the bolts on the sleeve that the joint threads into also snapped. Does anyone have one of those that I could "borrow"??
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I'll have a look tomorrow, I might have a replacement bolt and maybe even a second hand joint for the one you are trying to replace.
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Thanks James, that would be really handy! I've spoken to Jeepey where the joint was from, and it seems it might annoyingly have been the wrong part in the right box...
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I tried using the ball joint tool like Dave posted further up, but it threads all the way in before the ball joint budges.
I think I'm going to try wedging something between it and the top of the joint next time I try, and hope that works!
Lump hammer and hit the pitman arm (or hub) hard
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I finally have this sorted 8-)
New bolts sourced from a breaker, correct track-rod end overnighted from Lighthouse and I have a Jeep that strangely enough no longer has rattly feeling steering!
A few adjustments and I think the steering wheel is straight, so once Christmas is out of the way it'll be MOT time again :003: :003:
As an aside, how difficult is it to sort my tracking at home? The XJ has always had a mild drift to the left that I'm confident is and alignment issue, and I've read whilst looking up how to straighten the steering wheel that alignment can be done at home.
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This is the site I used when I did the tracking on my old XJ....http://go.jeep-xj.info
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Good site for all xj info needed
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very good site - but when set up it will probably still pull to the left (think wheel base is shorter on that side compared to the right - to allow for camber on roads - when left hand drive)
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adjust the lower cam bolt on the front left so that the wheel is staggered further forward than the right. 5mm should be sufficient but that does depend on the camber of the road
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adjust the lower cam bolt on the front left so that the wheel is staggered further forward than the right. 5mm should be sufficient but that does depend on the camber of the road
No cam bolts on XJ's - you need to mess about with spacers - all on gojeep
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Cheers for the answers guys. No proper internet for a while, but will check that site once I can!
I always put the pulling down to the camber etc, but after getting the ZJ I realised that the XJ is definitely worse. I assume that having the same setup they should be the same?
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If you find a decent garage they will do a better job of it
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Cheers James - that's probably what I'll end up doing!
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Damned XJ failed another MOT! I took it to a more local place in Belper and they were much more thorough!
Emissions were fine this time, but a couple of bushes need replacing, and some idiot (no idea who) has smeared grease on a brake disc!
£2.50 each from Lighty's and hopefully parts will be here tomorrow :001:
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My XJ finally has an MOT :001:
After a long 8 months of being off the road she's ready to come back very soon!
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The last time I had to pop the joint between the drag link and the Pitman arm, I used this ball joint separator, which came as part of the OTC front end set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41lwbgZWd%2BL._SX300_.jpg)
Hammering on it to break the taper is not recommended, because of the risk (however small) of damaging the Pitman arm seal or the sector shaft. I've successfully used the hammering technique to pop other joints though, where they go through solid metal - like on the steering knuckle.
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Nice one Bryn
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Congrats on the MoT! I've often had to hammer one of those type ball joint splitters into the joint just to get it in the gap! Can't find mine at the moment, last time i had it was to change the steering box on my XJ (and typing that has just reminded me where it most likely is! Need it soon for something else - upper wishbones on my 827 Sterling) but hopefully i'll exhume it soon.
Seems silly to fail on a couple of £2.50 bushes but we've all been there - i had a Cortina fail on rear fog lights once - both bulbs blew on the ramp! :icon_rolleyes:
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You get a fail for blown globes? That will get you a comment over here, but that's all. As the law states that a spare set of main globes must be carried in the car at all times, most drivers will change/ replace on the spot.
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We have some strange rules for the MoT here. One "rule of thumb" is "if it's fitted it must work" but this doesn't apply to everything. For example, if i fitted aftermarket front fog lights, they must work whereas a standard factory fit rear wash/wipe doesn't have to! Re the rear fog light fail i had, the nearside one went as they switched them on first time so they switched them off then on again and the drivers side went! If the drivers side had stayed on, it would have passed with an advisory that the nearside wasn't working - all down to the "Obligatory Lamps" laws as some cars only have rear fogs on the drivers side.
That said, we don't have to carry a spare set of bulbs so it's swings and roundabouts i suppose.
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Swings and roundabouts for sure! For years over here, the Govt decreed that between 1st November and the 1st of March, all vehicles must have headlights on at all times, whilst driving...6 months ago, that was changed and now the lights must be on regardless of the time of year.
I have a clever little thingy on my Golf which turns mine on as soon as the engine is running...and off again when engine stops. It was too easy to forget the lights on a bright sunny day!
Fog light/s are only mandatory on the rear, regardless of what you have fitted...I have a pair of low mounted LEDs on the front of mine and they work with the auto switch as well...they are focused to hit the ground at about 35 metres, so cause no problems to oncoming vehicles.
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Kind of pointless having a headlight switch really! Strange govt you have over there! Nice idea on the front frogs though, i bought a set of el-cheapo front fogs on ebay for my Jeep a while back but they're useless as fog lights so have bought some low (ish) output H3 LED bulbs for them and will fit them as Day Running Lights on it instead.
Weird how some countries insist on certain mandatory things and others don't though.
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Totally agree with what you said about our strange govt...it would take all day to list some of their other clever 'ideas'!
YT (Phil) is the man to talk with about the best set ups for LED fogs and day running lights.
The headlight switch on mine isn't quite redundant yet...the auto thingy allows low beam and warning flash function only. To get the complete Park/clearance - Lo - Hi - Flash and Fog settings, I have to use the main switch which disables the auto one until I turn the main one off again. Hope that makes sense. :icon_winkle:
It would be helpful if all countries read from the same page.
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That all makes sense about the auto-headlamp-on and the headlamp switch. :icon_biggrin:
Our govt also did something strange in 1986, they introduced "Dim-dip" headlights where the headlights would come on at about half power on dipped beams if the sidelights were on and the engine was running. Most of the world adopted this very quickly and it was the norm until the mid 90s when the EU said we were being discriminatory having that law and said we had to revoke it. Some manufacturers stopped fitting dim-dip immediately (mainly French) where others still fit it, even now!
Classic example of all countries not reading from the same page!
YT/Phil has put some useful links on page 2 of this thread, about halfway down :
http://www.birtydastards.com/frm/index.php?topic=28379.25
Mainly for CREE headlamp bulbs and also light bars. The LED bulbs i bought for these fog lights are only about 200Lm so fall into the category for DRLs (just!) and round here they don't seem to bother too much about lighting regs - there are loads of US-spec cars running with Right Hand Dip headlamps - a real pain when driving at night! Because we drive on the left here we need Left Hand Dip. Un fortunately it seems the people that check their cars out don't realise that RHD on a headlamp lens means Right Hand DIP and not Right Hand Drive! :icon_rolleyes:
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I know what you mean about the wrong spec headlights being used...and they are very hot on them over here. Folks who bring their cars from the UK usually cop a hard time from the cops...and it will be a MOT fail or stern comment, if you're lucky.
When I got my RHD KJ over here, I was lucky enough to hear of another owner in Spain who was moving back to the UK and looking for a suitable set...a very quick swap occurred between us and we were both sorted in less than a week with no money changing hands. My rear fog was on the wrong side, but I cured that by fitting one to the other side, giving me two...double protection! :icon_winkle:
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Shame they're not so hot on it here - even the local cops moan about it, especially if they're on a "shout" and have to slow down because they're being dazzled by something with the wrong headlamps!
Bonus getting your KJ sorted that way though - for both of you!
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Yeah...it was a bonus for both of us! He ended up with the correct headlights AND the correct speedo clock cluster and so did I!
Well chuffed with all that.
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Yeah...it was a bonus for both of us! He ended up with the correct headlights AND the correct speedo clock cluster and so did I!
Well chuffed with all that.
If only life could be like that all the time! :icon_biggrin: