Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: IrishKenCJ7 on August 23, 2014, 08:43:55 PM
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Ive decided to have a look at this old 4.2 ltr again.
Ive only just noticed there are no cables going into distributor like the others. Was this some nutter bypass attempt or should I order a sensor to connect to the other thingy in the pic.
Engine turns but no spark from coil to distributor.ive tried 2 coils.
Thanks
Ken
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if the ignition runs through an unmodified ECU then i would have thought you would require the connection to the dizzy as this controls the advance and retard IIRC. if you disconnect the connection then you have to swap out the dizzy for another type.
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You have no spark because you are missing the hot feed to the points, or I cant see it in your photo.
The connector you have there is meant to connect the electronic ignition module to the electronic (Hall Effect) type distributor, which you dont have (well not in that pic), have you still got the ignition ECU mounted in the inside of the front fender?
My guess is the original dizzy or ECU failed and the cheapest fix was to swap in a points and condenser type distributor from another motor. As far as a fix goes, it will work but the springs, weights and cam profile on the advance retard all has to match the gearing for a jeep as AMC put those units in other cars and trucks too.
How do I know?
Because I had to do that fix for a few years and it was a bastid for every second I had it!
My money says your timing is a sod to set, it idles like a bag of bolts, stalls on deceleration and hesitates something wicked if you stamp on the accelerator.
What year 4.2 is it?
Maybe I still have some of the necessary to make it happy again!
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you sure you dont have a 3.8 engine ? or the very least the dizzy from one
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It may well be a 232 but it says 258 on the log book. I will have to check the stamp on the engine tonight.
The ignition Module was on the fender but the leads out had been cut. I had replaced with another module while trying to get this started. i also bought a HEI distriutor but the connector does not fit to what Im holding in the pic above. Is there an adapter I need or something. I think the easiest thing at this stage is just a HEI upgrade as I think its just pop in the new distributor with no Module etc.
Heres what I had bought
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-AMC-JEEP-HEI-INLINE-6-CYL-DISTRIBUTOR-232-258-50K-Volt-/321382204809?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3ACJ7&hash=item4ad3df4589&vxp=mtr
Would like to get the original setup working before going with the HEI but god knows what the PO did with all the wires. I will have to trace everything back to the ignition. All I know is the starter and engine turn when I turn the key.
Do you know if any wires go to the HEI distributor or is it just the ignition coil and HT leads that connect to it?
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Plenty of explanations on tinterweb on HEI conversions, a couple listed below might help. Stateside consensus that once you have parts it takes just over an hour to complete
http://keith.cj8.tripod.com/hei_upgrade.htm
http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/jeep07.html
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Does the engine number match the number stamped on the bulkhead plate?
If not, then suspect a transplant but cant imagine anyone downgrading, well voluntarily at least!
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i did holed a piston on a 258 had a 232 lying about ran it for a year then dropped a 360 in
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There you go then, I'll rest my case.
That would have been 'of necessity' rather than voluntarily.
Seriously though, I cant see any connection between the points and the coil in that pic.
Also have you checked you are on #1 TDC for the compression stroke while setting up?
Have you tried static timing before cranking it over?
How long since it last ran? The cam followers sometimes need quite some time to pump up properly to give correct valve operation, ie they may not be opening far enough for a decent air/fuel charge yet.
Lastly are you sure your carb is working properly and the starter turning it over fast enough to give a good down draught?
Keep at it though, the 4.2 is a lovely motor when its running. Not many horses to boast about but torque in spades!
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Does the engine number match the number stamped on the bulkhead plate?
If not, then suspect a transplant but cant imagine anyone downgrading, well voluntarily at least!
Nothing wrong with the old 3.8 .. The one I had was a very healthy and pulled like a train. Only about 10hp between them anyway if I remember rightly.
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Nothing wrong with the old 3.8 .. The one I had was a very healthy and pulled like a train. Only about 10hp between them anyway if I remember rightly.
I agree the 3.8 was a great motor, but then its hardly surprising considering the rest of the family/derivitaves.
But it produced less torque too and the curve wasn't as flat either if memory serves.
That said, stick it in a Rambler Hornet and it went like stink!
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If ya can get to Wicklow I can help you fix it, nothing to difficult and have all the timing gear.
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Thanks Andrew, Im going to rob a few parts off another cj7 (sensor and ignition module) and see I far I get. This diagram looks simple.
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If you have a motorcraft ignition (looks like motorcraft wiring) then this is the wiring diagram.
This is a generic Ford circuit but the only difference on the Jeeps is the light blue wire on the Jeep comes from a seperate terminal on the starter solenoid and not from the ignition switch.
(http://www.junkyardgenius.com/jeep/cj5pics/dura01.gif)
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Rightio its seems I do have a 258 as the forth digit isA.
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The dizzy on left came from engine im trying to start. The dizzon right came from another 258.
There is an obvious height difference but the stems are the same lenght. I think the gears are same but cant be certain. I will stick in the dizzy on the right and hook up to module as per your diagram. Will post update next weekend.
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Make sure you have a good cap and rotor arm for the electronic ign dizzy as caps are different.
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Right I got an hour at this today and made progress. It turns out the green wire from module to ignition coil just ended half way through the loom. red wires suddenly changed into thick brown one etc. Added a fuel pump, new ignition module and distributor and cap from another CJ. Got it looking like daves diagram above and now I have spark through the HT lead. - I checked this using a timing light.
Engine turns as before but now I have spark - what next. I had added new spark plugs earlier on in the year.
Fuel pump isnt pulling fuel but I poured a little bit into the car and still didnt fire.
Do I check each HT lead as I;ve only checked lead No. 1.
The plugs are connected correctly to the leads and in correct firing order.
I put the distributor in the same way the other one came out but that's not to say the previous one was in correctly
Do I have to check TDC by removing first spark plug and putting my finger on the top. Could i be 180 degrees off but wouldnt that fire anyway and then stop.
I read here before that simply getting fuel, park and air I should hear it kick in but nothing.
This has been great learning but Im determined to hear it kick in. Then I can start tuning the carb etc.
By the way its a 2 barrel carb with square filter thingy on top.
So thanks so far to Dave the sparky.
What should I do next??
Thanks
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Whooohoooo. Im officially an amateur mechanic. Last owner was a mechanic who couldn't get it working.
I set it to 8 degrees BTDC and dropped a bit of fuel in the carb and she kicked in for me straight away.
Wont stay running becauase not getting fuel. I'll start a very slow build thread.
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Well done Ken you are now officially more mechanically adept than Bulldog :clap:
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Well done Ken you are now officially more mechanically adept than Bulldog :clap:
Dave the yorkshire pudding in your avatar is more mechanically adept than Bulldog
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So working backwards you now need to see if your fuel pump will suck enough petrol in while you crank to keep it running. A splash down it's gullet to start the process and with a little luck the carb will be set close enough to let it idle. Don't forget that you'll need to catch the fuel that would normally go down the return line in another canister, but once you're at that stage you'll get such a grin-on, the top of your head will be in danger of falling off!
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Firstly I will change this title of this to a build thread as its still in the Workshop section of the forum and will continue on with this thread.
The only original photos I have are attached. Ill take more as Im stripping her down.
So onto the build. I want to get this running and take it for a little drive down a green lane before I strip it so I know what the engine and drive train are like. steel fuel lines are shot as I sucked some fuel through with a farming syringe and got brown rusty watery petrol.
Putting fuel into the carb and she fires up for a few seconds. I put a line from the fuel pump into a peterl can and its sucking but only very faint. I replaced the rubber fuel lines in the engine compartment.
I need to get 3 new manual fuel pumps - Wheres the bet place? I found this and will order tomorrow if no other suggestions.
Firstly some history of vechicle
I bought this off a guy in west Ireland who sold me a YJ 12 years ago. He bumped into my father at a hardware store and asked if I still had the YJ which I do. He then asked was I interested in a CJ7 and my father said probably not but told me about it anyway. I popped over to his house one day and had a look at it. The body was in a bad way that if you opend the tailgail it brought some of the body away with it. Really flakey in places. I decided not too. But then a few months later (I kept thinking about it) I went back and it was still for sale (He hadnt publicised it) His wife was there and said she wanted rid of it. I came back next day and he said 400 and its yours delivered so I accept the offer.
A few weeks later I met another guy with a CJ7 who was looking for a soft top. I said had one (not original - some hand made thingy but sailing guy) and he gave me 200 for it. So its only cost me 200.
He said he bought it in the UK as a runner but when he got went to collect it it wouldn't start. So he got a few hundred Pounds off it. He never got it running and I asked now that I bought it what should I try first. He said spark plugs more than likely and I stared there.
Changed the spark plugs but now joy.
Borrowed a timing gun and no spark to first plug - or any
Read up and read up and here I am. Will post more as I do more each weekend.
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As I was stripping bit by bit I cleaned up the wheels and noticed they were original Golden Eagle wheels as you can see in the pics. I was looking for these for a Golden Eagle 78 I bought that had chrome wheels and the spare was a Golden Eagle Wheel alright. So now I had 5 golden eagle wheels so I had them sandblasted and painted white. I was about to paint them gold with Golden paint I had made up in Dublin by PPG to match originals but decided to leave them white for another levis blue model I have. I will get other wheels for the Golden Eagle again at some stage.
This Jeep in the pics above is a 79 CJ7 258 but registered as a LHD but is actually a factory RHD so I must get the log book sorted as it must hacve been a mistake when it was imported into Ireland.
The orignal color was Sable Brown so I may try and get it back to that color - here is what I think it should look like.
I'm not restoring this to a shiny bling bling but more to a daily driver as in this pic below
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Ok got three hours today. Got the grill off but i broke the bolt in the middle with the rachet.
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So i had loosened the fenders bolts a few weeks back but it seems someone had welded addition thick sheets to hold onto the fenders. This was an absolut bi#ch to remove. I thought i knew how to use an angle grinder. Was using thin cutting disks but maybe they were too thin.
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So six disks later here we are. I might be appkying too must pressure or not at perpendicular angle.
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Enough for today. I presume these fenders are repairable. I will use these to learn how to weld sand prime and spray.
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Of course every other build thread recommends putting nuts and bolts in labelled bags but i am slow to take advice. Picked up these zip bags in Aldi. I will label them next year :)
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Before leaving i took a stab at the body mount bolts. Not a budge. Ill bring in the recipricating saw next time and just cut them off. I had a set of new red body mounts somewhere.
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Body mounting bolts
You will find that the captive nuts ...... Threaded rectangular pieces tacked into the areas of double skin floor are the culprits as they get welded by rust to the thread and then even with the windy gun ....... It just breaks the tack weld and you're stuck ........ So çutting off is the answer and then drilling out 2" holes with the hole saw to access the loose captive nut........ Tis time consuming and a PITA. :icon_twisted:
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Is this the one with the engine you got running a couple of weeks ago?
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Thats right Dave thanks again for the diagram. The wiring harness looks custom which will be a nightmare for me as i like to reference diagram. Its close enough but black electricy tape everywhere doesnt look like factory option.
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How far are you going Ken? full and shiny rebuild or just a tidy up?
I have sent you a PM about some bits that may be useful to you as well :icon_winkle:
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Ken,
I can help you with the electrics as they are very basic in a JEEP.
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Thanks Andrew,
I believe you put power steering in your CJ6 during your rebuild. i have a YJ for breaking for the tub and it has the power steering setup. Is this straight forward or do i need to fabricate the bracket for the pump. I know there is issues with the splines matching up but could i take the whole steering column and PS setup from the YJ and swap it in.
Ken
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Ken,
Yes I did the conversion using a Cherokee box, I had to get the brackets to suit the V8 but I think the YJ setup should be the same in not similar to the CJ. If the block s are the same the brackets should bolt up. You will need to change your steering linkage as the splines are different between non ps and PS. Give me a call if you want to discuss in more detail
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Are you going to put the yj 4.0 engine into it? It would be a good swap, or at least the head and fuel injection
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Would that mean removing the carb and putting in fuel injection also. I think I might be pushing my skills there.
It might be something i do when i have it built back up.
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You can do it a few ways, just head swap, no efi use old manifold and carb, 4.0 head swap with efi and ignition which would require wiring harnes, ecu, manifold, throttle body ect, or complete engine swap, engine swap is what I would do since you have the complete engine, there are some really good write ups on jeep forum http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/4-0-head-swap-651649/.
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Finally got a weekend at the Jeep again after the winter. So many forums tell you its just a case of a few bolts and wiring harness and your done. But there is emergency brake connector. Clutch cylinder, some more brackets at the back just above the fuel tank. And as for the bolts. They are not just bolts , they are bolts inside a metal sleeve inside the bushing so cutting with a saws-all was useless. Ended up just banging them a few times with a lump hammer and a masonry chisel. My dad helper out as he has a digger which came in handy. I had engine wiring disconnected the previous week.
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I removed the front springs last weekend which took me half a day. Rear springs I waited until the tub was off as it was much easier. I knot wired brushed them, etch primed and chasis black painted them and will use them for another project.
I am putt a 2 inch lift kit on this project, so what is coming off this will be used to revive another 79 that has flat springs.
I ordered a full Totally Stainless steel bolt kit and full bushing kit for the cj so again what comes off this will be used to keep another cj "original".
Im trying to figure out how to remove the engine and tranny in one go. Should I remove them seperately or together. Where sould I disconnect what needs to be disconnected.
Any help welcome, otherwise Ill keep googling.
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Yup, those mounts always break on me too, I generally replace that mount with a Landy engine mount, drill out the old captive nut, fit an M10 Heli-coil and Bobs your mother's brother.
Oops, posted too late in saga!
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Did you get the fuel pump problem sorted. I might have a old one kicking around, not sure if it works or not but yours if you want it. The previous owner of mine put a electrical one on, it seems to work very well, plus you can run a hidden switch to it for a immobiliser.