Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: willo on February 11, 2012, 05:56:56 PM
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So, my Dana 30 has finally had the new R&P fitted on the ARB RD100 and I am happy with the installation, after chatting to ARB USA.
We took it for a test drive, and in 2wd its fine, however in 4wd on right hand lock, something is binding, causing the car to stop, though I can drive it forwards, it feels not dissimilar to when I stripped the teeth last time. It. feels to me like its the RHS wheel/shaft binding, and I don't want to force it forwards as I expect the R&P will fail again
We returned to the garage and put the jeep on the hawkeye and got the wheels off the deck, I put it in 4wd and dropped the clutch, and tried the wheels left to right lock and no binding, so next I tried putting the drive train under load by putting the brakes on, and again, no binding. we also tried it with lockers in, and lockers out, and still no binding.
Its a bit like its got a different R&P in it, but I'm sure its a 456, the same as the rear, so, has anyone got any ideas what the hell is going on?
George, my technician chap has also had the stethoscope out, and says that the front diff is nearly completely silent, and is happy with it
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The R&P is wrong for sure - did you count the teeth? I have seen this happen some time go.
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Thinking about this - the mud guys do this to make the front spin faster than the rear - completely irrelevant but wanted to share.
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The R&P is wrong for sure - did you count the teeth? I have seen this happen some time go.
No, I didn't count the teeth, was relying on the stamp(4.56 I think/hope)on the side of the Ring. It is a alloy usa unit, the same as the last 2, D30 4.56R
The binding only occurs on RH lock, ,
The stethoscope also said that the TC is making lots of banging sounds, and the back of the case is moving around quite a bit
would a buggered TC make this happen? bearing in mind I shoved the RHS of the axle back about a foot when I snapped off the lower control arm mount
is there a central diff in the TC? could that be buggered, George also noted that the front prop is slightly banana'd
On monday, they are gonna chalk the tyres and leave it running for a bit, see if the R&P's are wrong....
Might be time to order up that clocking ring for the D300....
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Try it without the front prop attached and report back.....
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Try it without the front prop attached and report back.....
It is fine in 2WD, and everything is still turning as I haven't got locking hubs
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So it's in the front axle then.
If I said you have won the euro lottery would you belive me?? I think not - always double check!!!
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prop wont help.....................
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prop wont help.....................
Indeed we have established that - you on the claret this night?
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Pope? catholic???
a cheeky little Australian shiraz................ chateau Wagga Wagga. really opens the sluices at both ends :ace:
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Porto is calling!!!
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front prop bananered, take it off and see :greggmo:
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So it's in the front axle then.
If I said you have won the euro lottery would you belive me?? I think not - always double check!!!
ok, i will ask them as i'm not on the island monday......
how many teeth should i have for 4.56?
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front prop bananered, take it off and see :greggmo:
Steve - that would only indicate bad vibration or transfer box problem.
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look on randys ring and pinion there is a chart
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this is what makes me think prop
George also noted that the front prop is slightly banana'd
and with bubba on randys :greggmo:
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look on randys ring and pinion there is a chart
Thanks
what is the mileage on the thought train that maybe the bumpstops aren't wound out enough and the CV's are binding, stopping the diff? however it happens in 4wd only, doesn't matter in high or low or lockers in or out, and only on full RH lock on the road. Driving in 4wd on the road is fine......
But nothing has changed and it all used to be ok before I shoved the axle back
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Bent axle tube or deformed housing? I don't even kknow if these would cause the problems you have or would have shown up with the tests already completed but your previous damage could have caused either.
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It's not the shafts (the turning right is a moody) it's the diff not sure what yet but the problem is defiantly diff related.
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Bent axle tube or deformed housing? I don't even kknow if these would cause the problems you have or would have shown up with the tests already completed but your previous damage could have caused either.
Hard core that but possible.
I have torn a front axle from a TJ and only one lower arm was still attached - never bent the front tubes though!!
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Driving in 4wd on the road is fine......
won't be a ratio miss match then, if it was the jeep would sway like fuck and you get tyre scrub (I know been there)
Are you sure the knuckle is all okay and the driveshafts are all straight? Is the UJ/CV centred on the knuckle joint okay?
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Bent axle tube or deformed housing? I don't even kknow if these would cause the problems you have or would have shown up with the tests already completed but your previous damage could have caused either.
the longside tube got twisted forward at the time of the control arm ripping off, it has since been twisted back and welded up round the socket
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Try it without the front prop attached and report back.....
It is fine in 2WD, and everything is still turning as I haven't got locking hubs
Erm. Don't you have a 231 transfer case on a TJ? Of course it will bind in 4wD, it has no centre diff.
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Driving in 4wd on the road is fine......
won't be a ratio miss match then, if it was the jeep would sway like fuck and you get tyre scrub (I know been there)
Are you sure the knuckle is all okay and the driveshafts are all straight? Is the UJ/CV centred on the knuckle joint okay?
what is tyre scrub?
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assuming the arb disconnects properly are you certain there is no tyre diameter problem
is it pos for the arb to be partly stuck so as to efectivly be locked to one side as the locker normally locks both shafts together i cant help wonder if it unlocks properly
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Try it without the front prop attached and report back.....
It is fine in 2WD, and everything is still turning as I haven't got locking hubs
Erm. Don't you have a 231 transfer case on a TJ? Of course it will bind in 4wD, it has no centre diff.
but bind to the point of ripping teeth off the r and p?
it never used to bind like this....
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what is tyre scrub?
It's when the opposing tyre does not agree.
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assuming the arb disconnects properly are you certain there is no tyre diameter problem
is it pos for the arb to be partly stuck so as to efectivly be locked to one side as the locker normally locks both shafts together i cant help wonder if it unlocks properly
this happened both on the 11.50's and the 12.50's, i have always run these sizes and never had a problem before...
2nd point hmmmmm
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so i am thinking on a ramp with the front wheels in the air engine off but in 4wd with locker out if you turn the front wheels they will rotate in oposit direction as the diff and prop can not turn so the spider gears rotate in stead but if one will not rotate the locker could be stuck partialy in locking the wheel to the drive train and hence the binding and ripping of teeth
if tube was bent the shaft at inbord end may have gouged slightly the coller the disengages the locker and may give some kind of sticking point
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Get tyre scrob when in 4WD ,ARB open and full lock.
Got 4.56 R&P D30 33" 10.5s
Did you test on tarmac ?? not non trying to as dumb questions
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so i am thinking on a ramp with the front wheels in the air engine off but in 4wd with locker out if you turn the front wheels they will rotate in oposit direction as the diff and prop can not turn so the spider gears rotate in stead but if one will not rotate the locker could be stuck partialy in locking the wheel to the drive train and hence the binding and ripping of teeth
pretty happy with the locker, fairly sure it unlocks ok, as wheels spin in opposite directions when turned, haven;t tried that test in 4wd though
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think we need to go back to what it happpened when it broke
you say axle moved back, fucked your ring and pinion so
axle perches welded back in a straight line ?
then have you checked axle shafts for trueness, in particular the long side drivers one , if prop is bent that will have an effect as it will push on the bearings and bind stuff up.
This aint happened on the road so need to think why its fooked :icon_winkle:
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Get tyre scrob when in 4WD ,ARB open and full lock.
Got 4.56 R&P D30 33" 10.5s
Did you test on tarmac ?? not non trying to as dumb questions
yes todays tests were on tarmac, I realise I may suffer from wind up, BUT it never did this before, I have driven the jeep a fair amount in 4wd on the road before and I have never encountered these problems.
From memory this binding still occurs on soft ground anyhow
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another thing we have noticed is that the front prop is too long at full droop, as my short arm pulls the axle back.
I have a spare front prop, with buggered uj's perhaps a go with that might help/be a way forwards
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I'm surprised you're still sane and haven't flogged it yet!!
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take it off, go for a drive then if ok put your spare on, worth an hours spannering :greggmo:
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another thing we have noticed is that the front prop is too long at full droop, as my short arm pulls the axle back.
I have a spare front prop, with buggered uj's perhaps a go with that might help/be a way forwards
It's highly unlikely to be the front prop!!!
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I'm surprised you're still sane and haven't flogged it yet!!
i actually love it, and quite enjoy the challenge of upgrading it all. just a bit of a mute point at the moment :greggmo:
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pretty happy with the locker, fairly sure it unlocks ok, as wheels spin in opposite directions when turned, haven;t tried that test in 4wd though
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try it in 4wd the way you did it did not realy show that it was totaly free i bet the prop was turning too if the prop is locked you then force the diff to go through its differential action
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pretty happy with the locker, fairly sure it unlocks ok, as wheels spin in opposite directions when turned, haven;t tried that test in 4wd though
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try it in 4wd the way you did it did not realy show that it was totaly free i bet the prop was turning too if the prop is locked you then force the diff to go through its differential action
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engine off, in 4wd and in gear, yes?
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yes
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if my foggy thinking is correct one wheel will be solid as it still connected to the crown wheel and prop shaft
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if my foggy thinking is correct one wheel will be solid as it still connected to the crown wheel and prop shaft
[attachment=1]
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and has the arb been fully apart ?
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and has the arb been fully apart ?
nope, not that I am aware of
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try the wheels in the air thing in gear and 4wd and report findings my gut says its arb related
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Methinks, Damaged/seized front drive shaft UJ?
The wieght of the vehicle could compound the level of siezure.
Or maybe a Caliper faailure? Common for TJ calipers to stick and bugger up?
Weak return springs in the ARB?
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Methinks, Damaged/seized front drive shaft UJ?
The wieght of the vehicle could compound the level of siezure.
Or maybe a Caliper faailure? Common for TJ calipers to stick and bugger up?
Weak return springs in the ARB?
by drive shaft do you mean half shafts? if so mine are cv type, so unlikely
its not a caliper issue, its fine in straight ahead, and no smell
maybe some mileage in ARB.......we shall see
but all good ideas, thanks
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does the right wheel catch on the bodywork stopping you from moving ?
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by drive shaft do you mean half shafts? if so mine are cv type, so unlikely
Why do you say unlikely? Are they stock 1993-1998 Grand Cherokee CV joint shaft or uprated daddy's
Didnt realise you were running CV type. With the tyre size your running and assuming they are stock, Then i would have a good look at them, as the symptom sound familiar to CV failure.
Stock CV's joints really dont like being driven hard locked, with large tyres and BHP at their max angles. Most lardie boys go through stock CV's quickly :003:
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by drive shaft do you mean half shafts? if so mine are cv type, so unlikely
Why do you say unlikely? Are they stock 1993-1998 Grand Cherokee CV joint shaft or uprated daddy's
Didnt realise you were running CV type. With the tyre size your running and assuming they are stock, Then i would have a good look at them, as the symptom sound familiar to CV failure.
Stock CV's joints really dont like being driven hard locked, with large tyres and BHP at their max angles. Most lardie boys go through stock CV's quickly :003:
sorry, I was quoting on unfamiliar territory. I have RCV shafts, and have asked on here whether there maybe a possibility of my bump stops not being extended enough, and on RH lock perhaps could the cv be binding. RCV in the install instructions do say not to have lock to lock too excessive. I emailed to ask what was too excessive and got no reply.
Though I have not changed my steering stops, and it all used to be ok, unless something has changed since I moved the axle back
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look on randys ring and pinion there is a chart
Thanks
what is the mileage on the thought train that maybe the bumpstops aren't wound out enough and the CV's are binding, stopping the diff? however it happens in 4wd only, doesn't matter in high or low or lockers in or out, and only on full RH lock on the road. Driving in 4wd on the road is fine......
But nothing has changed and it all used to be ok before I shoved the axle back
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RCV (https://www.rcvperformance.com/store/catalog/images/CVJ44INS.pdf)
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cv joints normally click or grumble on full lock and if seizing you get a funny waggle back through the steering wheel
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Nice upgrade the RCV's
Most cv fails are from the inner race or cage busting up.
Googled the RCV's and found a couple of articles where this was the case for the D60 deritive.
However on the D30 deritives, the diff R&P Carrier or Crosspins have failed, before the chrome molly shafts/CV's.
Im thinking the grumble and clicking and drive characteristic of a duff CV, maybe over shadowed by noisey tyres and general 4x4 drive characteristics???
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ok now we have two good options i think for the fault
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Nice upgrade the RCV's
Most cv fails are from the inner race or cage busting up.
Googled the RCV's and found a couple of articles where this was the case for the D60 deritive.
However on the D30 deritives, the diff R&P Carrier or Crosspins have failed, before the chrome molly shafts/CV's.
Im thinking the grumble and clicking and drive characteristic of a duff CV, maybe over shadowed by noisey tyres and general 4x4 drive characteristics???
would the stethoscope test not have brought up any cv problems? George said the front axle was as almost silent on both locks, arb in and out. Sorry for the silly questions.
Also if it is a case of windup, even if the lockers is off in 4wd, shouldn't the diff act as a diff, so if the RHS is binding, then free up the LH side and go with that?
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would the stethoscope test not have brought up any cv problems? George said the front axle was as almost silent on both locks, arb in and out.
My thoughts on this is, that without the wieght of the vehicle the "CV failure" may just not show up.
If it were me. i would strip out and check the CV.
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Initial reports from the garage are that the r &p's are different, as sfter 10 revolutions of the wheels, the chalks are out ffffffffs :011: :icon_twisted:
Not a happy willo
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How'de that happen???
Rolling heads? Blood squirt artery courtcase murder?
Sorry to hear the news.
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God knows. Lets see what the tooth count is. Trouble is, its cost me over a K including trip and trailer and ferry to 7s, etc and its the second one grrrr. Unless gasser put the wring one in the back......
Can there be anything in the tc that would hive the same result, as im told my 231 is fooked
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the r+p's being different will bugger the transfer case. but no there is nothing really in there that would make any difference
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I would get both diff covers off and get counting. Shame something like that might have caused so many problems and £££
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So stretched chain, fucked bearings, fucked chain, wouldn't make any difference?
Whichever, its been one of those days today, i am going out for some much needed estrella!
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God knows. Lets see what the tooth count is. Trouble is, its cost me over a K including trip and trailer and ferry to 7s, etc and its the second one grrrr. Unless gasser put the wring one in the back......
Can there be anything in the tc that would hive the same result, as im told my 231 is fooked
Gasser would have been 100% - do as JamesH said.
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Estrella???? Portugese Dog??
Tell me I'm wrong Willo :icon_rolleyes:
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Estrella???? Portugese Dog??
Tell me I'm wrong Willo :icon_rolleyes:
Estrella Damm
[attachment=1]
:003: :icon_jook:
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God knows. Lets see what the tooth count is. Trouble is, its cost me over a K including trip and trailer and ferry to 7s, etc and its the second one grrrr. Unless gasser put the wring one in the back......
Can there be anything in the tc that would hive the same result, as im told my 231 is fooked
Gasser would have been 100% - do as JamesH said.
Gasser put two of my ARB's in the bin, which I pulled out and found nothing wrong with, so sorry if I don't agree with you on this one, but I wouldn't trust him as far as I could have thrown him. However in his defence, if the last owner had incorrectly informed me what ratio's were in, and Mark replaced like for like, then I can understand.
Clocking ring has been ordered!
so if my 231 IS fooked, there may be a SYE going begging, and Terra 2WD low
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I found Gasser to be the man for axle problems - supercharges and strokers now that's another thing, we all have experience and a story to tell...
Hey I'm not the oracle on all things TJ I have been known to be wrong - please don't feel you have to agree with me, just like I don't have to share my experience and save people some hard earned mooolar.
Another day and we are all a bit wiser!!!
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umm i have found that sometimes you will get a very slight difference in ratio front to rear in some set ups from the supplier 4.10 and the front as 4.95 or close i asume its an anomoly with certain gear sets to do with the ringear size.................. i may well be talking total arse
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just like I don't have to share my experience and save people some hard earned mooolar.
But it helps if you do :003:
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maybe interested in in SYE if you go that way for future plans :icon_winkle:
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and rear prop to go with it :greggmo:
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Rear prop not very well, but all rebuild able i believe! :003:
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wold make good spare for red truck, future upgrade for blue, let me know what you want :greggmo:
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Could i safely assume that if the r and p count was the same, thrn likely i have stretched the tc chain? I have video to proove that the tear is faster than the front, and only after 10 revolutions. :jpshakehead:
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New one on me this....
If the transfer box chain is loose it normally wears a nice hole in the side casing - never seen one jump a gear - now I'm intrigued.
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But if it was stretched, that would act the same as backlash on the front prop, yes?
Iom i sent you the video...
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You would get more backlash but you still have the same number of teeth on the gears and the same number of links in the chain so you shouldn't get a timing difference between front and rear urns, as IOM says, it's jumped a tooth.... But you'd hear that and probably see it happen too.
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You can hear the chain rubbing on the transfer case as it gets stretched, old, and abused.....................had that problem on the YJ with locker in the front and spinning prop the whole time..........non CV front prop.rogered....................one pinion bearing...rogered..............one 231 chain..rogered.................. job done :icon_twisted:
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Looking at the video the rear spins much faster than the front!!!
Did you do the same with the lockers in?
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i hate to be awkward here but you can only distinguish if ring and pinion are mis matched are with a single revolution of the wheels 10 revolutions may well show a diffidence over 10 revolutions all you are showing is that as the d30 ring is only three quarters the size of the d44 rear you are high lighting the fact that a perfect match to some ratios is not 100% and the 231 has no popper means of soaking this up on a hard dry surface
i assume after 10 revs the front is say 3 inchs out or poss a bit more if it were 3inches on one revolution i would say deff mis matched ratios
the 231 one does suffer stretched chains and makes a hell of a clanking when shot but would not in my opinion give your symptoms
and if it could make your symptoms it would bind on both locks not just one
i still think your symptoms are arb or cv related
i reserve the right to talk utter bollox at all times ............................... and hope the problem is resolved v soon weather i am right or wrong
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Looking at the video the rear spins much faster than the front!!!
Did you do the same with the lockers in?
Sorry, the video I sent you was not the correct test, as a) the lockers weren't in, and you can see the other wheels turning at different rates. Though I am told it gives the same result when the lockers are in, and the amount the front is slower than the rear increases at the same rate per 10 revolutions, eg:
after 10 revs, the front is out by 1 inch, after 20 revs out by 2, 30 revs 3 and so on and so forth.
So the only explanation I have, is the difference in ring diameter twix the front D30 and rearD44, I have been winding myself up merely as a result of transmission wind up.
Counted the front teeth this evening, and its the same as the last 2 R&P's 41/9
But then again, as Bubba says, why doesn't it wind up on both locks, Ah man....... :icon_rolleyes:
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You can hear the chain rubbing on the transfer case as it gets stretched, old, and abused.....................had that problem on the YJ with locker in the front and spinning prop the whole time..........non CV front prop.rogered....................one pinion bearing...rogered..............one 231 chain..rogered.................. job done :icon_twisted:
My TJ has done 40,000 miles, Probably half of them have been offroad.....
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So thats a 4.56.........on the front ...what's in the rear?
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So thats a 4.56.........on the front ...what's in the rear?
Don't know yet cos they wanted to go home. BUT the R&P 2 editions ago is also 41/9 and that was fine, I wonder if I have just been on a long goose chase?
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not seen the vid i only got 2 thirds of a screen kids have trod on my laptop
not a goose chase it should still not have ripped a pinion and ring gear to bits and the binding with no locker in is not right
the diff in the wheels rotating is easily absorbed by the tyres as its so little over so many revolutions sure you would get a bit of scrub but not r&p detonation
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If the R&P tooth count is 41/9 (4.55:1) in both front an rear then the front and rear wheels should turn at EXACTLY the same speed regardless of the fact that the ring is smaller in the d30 than the d44. The only time that will happen is if the tooth count is different e.g. (50/11 which would still give a nominal 4.55:1 but it's actually 4.5454545..... rather than the 4.555555555 you get with 41/9.
Transmission windup is caused by the front & rear wheels not being able to rotate at different speeds (which is why you shouldn't run a TJ or YJ on the road in 4WD but you can run an XJ that way- it has a diff in the transfer case. It's not caused because there is a slightly different ratio in the axles.
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If the front is slower then you may have 4.88 in the rear???? puzzling eh
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If the front is slower then you may have 4.88 in the rear???? puzzling eh
Other way round. :icon_winkle:
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So thats a 4.56.........on the front ...what's in the rear?
Don't know yet cos they wanted to go home. BUT the R&P 2 editions ago is also 41/9 and that was fine, I wonder if I have just been on a long goose chase?
:-X :-X
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er........... your right .merlot to blame............. :jpshakehead: math or even maths never a strong point...makes sense as 4.10 in the rear seems logical a few years ago before we all got more radical.
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not seen the vid i only got 2 thirds of a screen kids have trod on my laptop
not a goose chase it should still not have ripped a pinion and ring gear to bits and the binding with no locker in is not right
the diff in the wheels rotating is easily absorbed by the tyres as its so little over so many revolutions sure you would get a bit of scrub but not r&p detonation
I will post the vid, the example I gave is a an under example
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If the R&P tooth count is 41/9 (4.55:1) in both front an rear then the front and rear wheels should turn at EXACTLY the same speed regardless of the fact that the ring is smaller in the d30 than the d44. The only time that will happen is if the tooth count is different e.g. (50/11 which would still give a nominal 4.55:1 but it's actually 4.5454545..... rather than the 4.555555555 you get with 41/9.
Transmission windup is caused by the front & rear wheels not being able to rotate at different speeds (which is why you shouldn't run a TJ or YJ on the road in 4WD but you can run an XJ that way- it has a diff in the transfer case. It's not caused because there is a slightly different ratio in the axles.
I have just counted my 'spare' 44 rear and that is 50/11 which i guess is gonna be the same in my tj
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There you go.
That would explain the slight difference, the rear is spinning marginally faster than the front. I'm with bubba though, that shouldn't detonate the R&P. It might explain a stretched TC chain though.
Even so, you would only really experience windup if you were running on tarmac in 4WD
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It doesn't sound like the gears. If my math is correct using 4.56 gears and ten turns of the tires as a base. This will give 4.10 gears 11.1 turns and 4.88's 9.3. There must be something else. Two sets of gears will never be perfectly the same and that's why the full time 4wd jeeps run the 241 transfer case with the third diff.
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Can't upload the video, I am almost completely lost with this now. I am certain that it was wind up that I suffered the other day, as was on tarmac, but then why doesn't it happen on the other lock?
It felt exactly the same in 4wd low at 7s when the r&P exploded and that was on soft shaley welsh slatey shale stuff, pretty slippy, and it shouldn't have gone then I don't think.
So feck knows :icon_rolleyes:
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Take out the rear drive shaft and go for a spin. This maybe useful to see if it's the front cv joints. If it's the tcase it may still happen but you will at least know it's not wind up.
Even windup should not break parts. My jeep has spent a good amount of time on solid rock with lockers in both axles and the tires will always slide but nothing has exploded unless it was by my stupidity.