Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: firefighter1023 on October 02, 2015, 06:57:41 AM
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nks for accepting me. ;)
I have a 2002 jeep cherokee 2.5crd manual.
I have a big problem. It will start but die as soon has I hit the revs. There is a strange high pitch sounds coming from engine bay.. sounds like air getting sucked in. I can't find the problem. I have replaced the following still nothing.
Hpfp
Fuel rail and sensor
4x injectors
Cam sensor and crack sensor
Fuel filter and head
Timing belt and pullies
Any advice would be much appricated. . Thanks in advance :)
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Turbo? Intercooler hoses?
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Thank for reply ... much appricated. I have also replace tank quick release hoses with 8mm hose and jubilee clips. Now when starting it's blowing return hoses of fuel rail. Could this be causing too much pressure in system has never had this problem before. Will check turbo ect today. Thanks.
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Blowing the return hoses off could be indicative of a blockage, or at least restricted flow IMHO.
Try removing the fuel tank filler cap and running the engine with it off...I recall having a problem with mine, ages ago and it turned out to be a faulty pressure release valve in the fuel tank. Could also be a restriction/blockage/kink in the fuel return hose between engine and the tank.
May be worth a look.
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Thanks big baz. Will try that this morning. I am losing the will to carry on with my beloved jeep. Lol. One problem sorted another one starts. What is the best odb reader to read jeep has all garages say they can't read it. Lol. Strange. Thanks.
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Also what's your thoughts on replacing the quick release hoses from tank. As I have done that and seems to be buildin more pressure? Good or bad thing??? :(
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These little buggers can be a headache at times...I was very lucky with mine as the very few problems I had ended up being stupidly simple to fix.
Don't give up on her.
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Also what's your thoughts on replacing the quick release hoses from tank. As I have done that and seems to be buildin more pressure? Good or bad thing??? :(
As I said above, it may be a blockage in that return hose....remove the fuel cap and blow air down the return line with a nozzle and you should hear it bubbling in the tank. If you have the bayonet type connection at the tank end, make sure of the connection...had a problem with this on a previous Peugot of mine.
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I will be off line for a couple of hours, so don't think I've given up on this problem.
Between us, I'm sure we can get a good result, so ask all the questions you like and I'll do my best to help.
Bazz
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I really appricate all your help. Such a gentleman. Thank you. I am off to have a look at her now and will keep ylu updated. Thank you
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Back on line again.
Let me know how you got on.
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Hi them checks was ok. Wat I have noticed is that at back of fuel pressure rail is a small pipe. Possible return and it keeps blowing off the other End. Spilling fuel all over
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OK, leave that with me for a while and I'll go and investigate.
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http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/2.5_2.8_export_diesel/2.5CRD.pdf
Have a look at this lot and see if it makes any sense. It would appear that the small pipe should attach to a junction block which may be blocked.
See how you go...
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Hi baz. Thanks for that. That's the problem solved with blowing off pipe. The only issue is now is that it starts for a second then stops. Also when I hit the gazs it cuts it out too. When it finally gets started. I love this car honest. Possible air in system now. :( thanks. :)
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Glad that helped a bit. Without going back and looking in that manual, I think there's a troubleshoot section, either at the beginning or the end of the fuel section...worth a look.
Keep me posted on developments...I'll be on here until late tonight.
The fuel pressure sensor could be a candidate....fingers crossed for ya.
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Replaced the old quick release pipes from fuel tank. Thats now putting air in the fuel filter head. Problem was when I put the jubilee clips and fuel pipe in there place was building too much pressure and blowing pipes off. To be fair I did replace them with 8mm pipes. Think the inlet was recieving fuel delivered to much fuel. So possible air getting in the inlet quick release pipe from tank. Thoughts please. !! :)
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why do you need quick release connectors on the tank? do you remove it regularly
what is the bore of the original pipe, i assume 8mm and the connectors have an 8mm internal bore
as for stopping when throttle is pressed, have you removed the inlet to the turbo and tried ?
If there is a sensor after the air filter (mass air sensor) disconnect that and see what happens.
Any fault codes being displayed?
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Just to jump in here ...No idea why there are quick release connectors on the tank end, but they were designed and built that way. A lot of folk don't realise that KJs have two fuel pumps...one in the tank and the other incorporated in the injector pump. The pump in the tank has an inbuilt filter which needs checking/cleaning from time to time. For reference, refer to the stuff I posted earlier.
The reference that Dave69 made to the internal diameter of the new pipes may be a factor, but if the return system is working properly, any over supply of fuel should be dealt with in the normal way. My thinking, at the moment, is that the line back to the tank is kinked or blocked, thus not allowing the unwanted/excess fuel to flow back to the tank. These motors are quite touchy...air in the system will ALWAYS cause a problem, pressures above or below the norm CAN cause abnormal performance, how much will depend on the variance in these pressures.
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Hi dave. Thank for help.
The tank I think comes standed with the quick release hoses. I came across them while cleaning the tank as the diesel had got slightly jellied.
I don't have a mass air sensor on my jeep.
I haven't tried removing the turbo inlet hose but will give it a try tomorrow :)
The bore of the quick release on the inlet is 7mm I think and the return is 8mm. Only just worked that out today.
I have been at this now for a staggering 18 months and to be honest could have bought another jeep with the money it cost. But I rufussed to give in lol. Just seems one problen after another.
I have notice loads of air in the fuel head and when I prime it loses pressure within seconds and loads of air again.
The only thing that hasn't been replace is the glow plugs. ??
Also the smoke it white when not giving gas and black when hitting the revs when starting. Thanks for reading guys. :)
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Refer to what I posted just before your last.
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I do have a p1130 code bazs. I believe that does refer to fuel pressure. That seems to confirm your theory. Possible blockage or leak on the return pipe.
Just a thought could the fuel be leaking back from the fuel head after cranking stops... is that even possible mate. ?????
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Sorry for the lack of answer last night...late night visitor = fuzzy head!
P1130 indicates fuel rail pressure problem for sure. Possible causes can be leaks anywhere in the system, faulty pressure sensor, faulty injector seal or return lines or something iffy around that fuel filter head...it shouldn't allow fuel to leak back, but it is possible.
Looks like you're going to have a busy Saturday.
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Hope the heads not too sore Lol.
Yes a busy Saturday on the jeep. Time to start on all the fuel pipes and find this air source. Thinking of fitting a one way valve on the inlet line close to fuel head to prevent back leaking on there.
Also going to replace the quick release hose on fuel tank with a 7mm pipe and jubilee clips.
Fully retrace the return pipe and look for any problems there.
Checking turbo hoses ... The fuel filter head is new, but will check for air getting in there.
Will keep you updated mate. Cheers :)
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pull the return pipe off and connect another but into a jerry can etc, cover it so that the return pressure doesn't spray the fuel every where.
If there is a blockage in the pipes this should confirm the theory
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Hi dave. I replaced fuel inlet and return at tank to check for air bubbles. Both have no air in then. Very strange. So I am.confused becuase the fuel head is getting air .. I think it's showing a problem with the fuel head (maybe) but strange how no air on return pipe.
She revs to around 2500rpm on full throttle but won't tic over now. It's making no sense. I think I'm missing the obvious but can't for the life of me see it.
Any further suggestions will be much appricated. Thanks all. :)
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Does your filter assy have the water bowl on the bottom? If so, check and make sure the drain cock on that is tight and sealing properly...obviously drain off any water that may be in the bowl.
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Hi baz. Going to replace fuel filter head. Got a p0051. More problems. Lol.
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That's a strange code to get....do you still have the old/original fuel filter head to check and try before you go and buy another one?
Another thing you might try...bypass the filter by using a short piece of high pressure hose and jubilee clips...I've done this on a Caterpillar D8 dozer and the result was positive...just don't do it for too long!
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:iagree:
I did that on a diesel XJ with a similar problem
then fitted a ford transit filer
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Hi guys.
Strange! When disconnected inlet and return from fuel filter and fit clear pipe crank NO FUEL going through clear pipe. No attempt to start ... but when I put back to fuel filter starts on revs for a min or so then stops. Could it be the high pressure fuel pump. AGAIN. Arrr. Thanks.
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Don't give up yet mate. Try this...
when you have the inlet pipe/hose disconnected from the filter head, using that piece of clear hose feeding into a jar or can, turn the ignition on, but do not crank or try to start the motor....fuel should be fed from the tank as soon as the ignition is on. The lift pump in the tank is electric and should be providing fuel.
Try that.
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Hi baz.
My jeep is uk version KJ Series. We don't have lift pumps in the tank mate. I believe it's just the fuel pump on the engine. I know when I have cleaned the tank I haven't seen a lift pump. :(
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:017: Mine was the UK series as well and it definately had a lift pump inside the tank, but if yours doesn't have it, then I am almost out of ideas. Revert to plan A and investigate the IP.
Have a look at that service manual pdf I sent you, go to fuel system and then to section 14 - 13 and see if yours is the same (mine was).
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Hi baz.
Going to look at manual mate. I think if all else fails a new engine .. :( it's got me totally confused. I am think sending it to stealaship for a diagnostics 1st before engine. Becuase I have replaced everything on the engine now and all sensors. Just a thought! What about pcm/ecu failure ????
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I'm clueless about Jeep diesels (except a tiny bit of WK diesel knowledge) but if Bazz is correct about a pump in the tank then my experience of these lumps on the petrol models is that they love to fail, either no providing enough or any pressure when ignition is turned on or the anti return valve gives meaning no pressure being held in the system. Like I started with, no actual knowledge of this model and engine but I really don't want you to go into the new engine purchase route when it could potentially be a £100 pump and a few hours of labour to sort out.
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I would be exploring every possible option before I went down the new engine route...they won't come with all the peripheral stuff which can and do go wrong.
At the moment my thought are these....engine starts and runs from residual fuel in filter housing....when the motor is running, the Main pump causes enough vacumn in the line to get SOME fuel from the tank to the filter, but not enough to let it rev very high. My redneck experience says get a jerry can full of fuel and sit it on the roof of the vehicle with a hose connected to the inlet side of the filter...use it like a siphon and remove all the air first with the primer pump on the top of the filter housing. Start the motor and see what happens...it might take a moment or two to run smoothly, but will prove or disprove the feed theory from the main tank.
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common rail diesels have lift pupms in the tank to prime the main fuel pump.
the jeep should be fitted with one unless they have a revolutionary design that no one else has for common rail use
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Sounds like the pump is definitely worth changing (assuming it's not too expensive)
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common rail diesels have lift pupms in the tank to prime the main fuel pump.
the jeep should be fitted with one unless they have a revolutionary design that no one else has for common rail use
Totally agree with you Dave69....using a siphon to keep the filter charged with fuel will indicate whether the lift pump is faulty or not ( when he used the clear pipe, he stated that NO fuel was visible...that's a very clear clue by itself). Not forgetting that the height difference between the bottom of the tank, where the lift pump is located, and the filter head is something like 30 inches!
Maybe the main pump or the fuel pressure sensor is faulty and that remains to be seen, but if the lift pump in the tank is playing up and the supply of fuel to the filter head and onwards to the IP is unreliable or seriously depleted, no amount of fiddling is going to cure the problem until fuel supply is rectified.
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common rail diesels have lift pupms in the tank to prime the main fuel pump.
the jeep should be fitted with one unless they have a revolutionary design that no one else has for common rail use
....like for example the KJ CRD, which has a Bosch CP3 pump with both lift and high pressure pumps integrated in one unit?
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Mike .. you are correct. There is defo no lift pump in the tank. I have stripped the tank and no pump.
Just a thought for you all pcm/ecu fault. ??????
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Grrrrr. Tried they hose from the high pressure fuel pump to a can of fuel and still no start. Air and fuel going back to can when stop cranking ..... could this mean another high presure fuel pump. Arrr. Hope not. :(
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:017: The hose was supposed to feed fuel from the can down to the filter head, then to the pump...if the air is cleared and everything runs as normal, that indicates a possible leak between tank and filter head....if air bubbles persist, bypass filter head and connect hose direct to pump feed...no air and proper running indicates possible filter head leak.
Work on from there...
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Sorry for the late reply. Been a busy week. One quick question. Engine is ice cold but the odb reader is saying engine coolant temp and air intake temp is 215 degrees.... very strange. Could this be a source to the problem. ???? ... I really need this lady fixing for the winter. :( .... Thanks again guys for all your help. I really do appricate it. :)
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:017: :017:...that's very strange! Disconnect the battery for 30 mins or so, reconnect and try the scanner again. (make sure you have your radio security code handy).
If that doesn't change things, I have no idea where to go after that.
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I totally agree. Very strange them readings. Possible case starting problem. I have tried and still same reading. Fried pcm/ ecu maybe. !!????
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temp sensors are normally high resistance when cold, low resistance when hot. The temp you have indicated would indicate a possible short between the two wires going to the sensor. I wouldn't think it's the sensor itself as they normally go open circuit when they fail.
I don't know where the temp sensor is on your engine but if you locate it you can measure the resistance between it's pins. This chart is the one for TJ intake air and coolant temp sensors. It should be in the ball park of what your sensor should show. If the computer thinks temp is high it could be running lean.
PM sent which may also help.
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Thank you very much baz for that information. I will check it tomorrow and report back to you mate. I think all mechanical issues have been covered. Think more electrical now. Hope so. Get her back on the road ready for the snow. :) thanks for helping me with this problem. I really do appreciate it. :)
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Oh been here with CRDs. Deffo NO lift pump in the UK KJ tank. It is worth fitting one, I fitted one & wired into the fuse box by passenger feet, US KJs have a tail on the loom for a pump, UK ones don't.
Pump I fitted
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq300/offroading/kj/IMAG0111.jpg)
ALSO, fit a clear filter higher than the filter head, means you can see if you are getting air in the lines as they work upto there
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq300/offroading/kj/IMAG0113.jpg)
Next off clean the MAP sensor in the inlet.
The following link should be all you need to know to get your jeep running, its a goldmine of info
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207
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Hi. Thanks for the link .. much appricated. . Going to have another look this weekend and will keep you informed. Finger crossed. :)
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That link provides a wealth of good info and will help you out I'm sure.
The MAP sensor is the one thing I forgot to mention in my previous posts....I used to clean mine about every six weeks or so, even if it didn't really need it. A little tip you might find handy...use a magnetic hex tool to remove the screw which holds it in place as there is a small washer under the head and it can fall off and go down the hole quite easily. (ask me how I know this).
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This is the odb reading when engine is ice cold. Also the throttle positions sensor is reading 100% on odb live data when starting up. Could this be my ecu????
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These readings are on ignition only. The engine is not cranking or running. Cheers. :)
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The inlet air and coolant temperatures seam to be quite high!
I think my TJ uses a common 5 volt feed for the engine sensors and you may have lost this. Just a guess.
On the industrial equipment I work with the temp reading goes to max if wiring or a sensor goes bad.
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Maybe check the wiring to sensors for the 5v feed and signal out. Throttle position sensor is easy enough to test with a multimeter to see that it is giving different voltages in different positions.
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Could any one please tell me were the throttle position sensor is please. :) I am satisfied machanically it's sound now. Time for the electric. :(
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This link will take you to a 2.5CRD manual on my One Drive.
http://1drv.ms/1LeJROC
Check section 8.6 under component location. (Page 211) I think in this case the call it the accelerator pedal position sensor. The manual also has loads of fault diagnosis charts
If you want a copy of the manual sent PM me your email
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Just thinking. I know the jeeo requires a odb 3 reader. Is there any software and cables for laptop that could do the same reading at a lower cost. Bit expensive them odb 3 tools. :) thanks.
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Hasn't Jay just picked up a full reader kit? Might be worth a call and few quid his direction.
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Indeed I have, where about are you? I'm travelling all over the place so you never know
www.facebook.com/jrservicingandtransport
www.jrservicingandtransport.co.uk
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Hi mate. I am in South Yorkshire. Any good :)
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Hi all. Got clear pipe on out to high pressure fuel pump. When cranking air bubbles coming from hpfp to fuel head. Why would that happen. Thanks all
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I had that, just air in lines, in my case faulty filter head. Try the clear filter like I did, makes it easier to see if you have fully bled the system.
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Thanks for info. Defo fuel in line. New fuel head ordered. Still got a reading on 412f on ect when engine ice cold. Unplugged ect sensor still same reading. StartING up and stopping after a second. Also acceleration at 100% when on half revs. Arrrr. Electrical now. :(
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I've been watching this thread hoping you can resolve your problems, but it seems its just going on and on. You live in South Yorkshire which isn't that far from Chesterfield. If you can get your Jeep towed there, James at Peak Jeep will almost certainly be able to sort it. Give him a ring. 01246 450650 or 07958 698156. Hth
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Thanks for info mate. :)
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You mentioned early in the thread the diesel was like jelly and that's why you had to change your tank. Did you flush your fuel lines through when you changed the tank or do they still have diesel jelly in them? If so then this will cause the problems you've been getting.
Also the lack of lift pump in the tank is worrying. I fell asleep while reading the thread (not because of the thread though) but remember seeing a new electric lift pump about halfway through - was this yours and have you fitted it? If so well done, if not, do it!
I know in another application the VM engine needs a lift pump and has a tank mounted electric lift pump and there's no reason to assume anything different. It sits on the end of the fuel sender and is a very slim pump with a filter sock on the end of it. I'm guessing Jeep would have done the same.
Usually the cause of the diesel jelly you described is sugar in the tank so when you get it sorted i strongly recommend you invest in a decent locking fuel cap :icon_biggrin:
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Thank you very much for that information and makes a lot of sense. The sugar part sounds like it could be my problem. At that time there was local idiots going round damaging cars. IE bangers on windscreens ect. I think that could be a strong pisibillity with the sugar. It never cross my mind until now.
What is the best way to clean my fuel lines. Has I have read on the damage and it does sound like everything I have to replace. So fingers cross now it could just need fuel lines cleaning. Many thanks again for the use full info. :)
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Thank you very much for that information and makes a lot of sense. The sugar part sounds like it could be my problem. At that time there was local idiots going round damaging cars. IE bangers on windscreens ect. I think that could be a strong pisibillity with the sugar. It never cross my mind until now.
What is the best way to clean my fuel lines. Has I have read on the damage and it does sound like everything I have to replace. So fingers cross now it could just need fuel lines cleaning. Many thanks again for the use full info. :)
Well i'm not quite sure the best meethod of removing the sugar although i would give hot water and washing up liquid a try first - remove the fuel line or at least the ends of it so you don't contaminte the injection pump with the washing up liquid. The jelly effect has probably caused blockages in the filter head and hopefully hasn't got any firther although you've mentioned that the return was blocked somewhere - almost certainly with this jelly stuff.
I just hope that once you've cleaned everything that is in the system you can get it up and running again without too much trouble. At least on a pterol the sugar can be cleaned out comparitively easily but for some reason reacts with diesel, or at least that's been my experience.
I can't remember for sure but something in the back of my mind says acetone will dissolve sugar. You can also use acetone as a fuel additive to improve the diesel atomisation (very low dosage though, a teaspoon to a tankful) so maybe adding a small amount into a clean fuel can full of diesel then adding that to the tank might help. Blowing the lines out with compressed air would also be a possibility and if you ever get hold of the toerags that vandalised the cars in your area, feel free to put their heads under your wheels and drive over them! :icon_twisted: