Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: Bulldog67 on May 25, 2014, 06:56:09 PM
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Im prepared to sling wads to get this MOFO sorted or CF will be done this year in a frickin dulvo :banghead:
The Chief STILL overheats, despite a new engine and twin elec fan set up. Weird thing is it doesn't do it from start up. Drove bout 25 miles today on way to the play day b4 it decided it was unhappy, last 20 miles of which was m/way. It just hovered near the 'oh shit' area.
No probs at the off road site - stayed in the middle zone.
Then on the way home it hits the hot spot and goes beyond - I had a theory that the temp sender was fooked so ignored it and drove about 10 miles like that but once I got home I could see that there was steam coming from the overflow bottle.
I had drained it and flushed it via every god-damn pipe on Friday and it runs clear water. I then did the coolant at 50/50.
So much of this truck is awesome but this is pissing me off.
Its been running hotter (via the temp guage) than normal since I got it back but before the aborted Harptree journey it had done a 250 mile trip to Billing without any issue
Shall I just get some super core bastard rad?
Tues Im planning on ringing lightys for a new sender and thermostat but other than that sling as many ideas as poss please gents coz this has to be sorted.
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Are you sure your fans are kicking in
what controller are you using
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if i switch it off then I can hear the fans
and when Im tootling around town etc it gets hot ish and then suddenly comes down as (I assume) the fans kick in
it did occur to me that maybe they kick in too late for m/way driving?
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Had a BMW that overheated after a while......on m ways........specifically in the south of effin France.......
Vacuum advance and retard had a perforated pipe that meant engine ran too advanced and overheated.......new length of pipe and was sorted as a sorted thing........
Don't know if your manly 401 and it's HEI have vacuum advance retard but..........just my 2 cents.
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does your gearbox have a cooler in the rad like the xj do . i had it where the gearbox was causing the jeep to overheat on the motorway turned out to be a block oil cooler
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If you have any spare coin...... :iagree:
Worth having separate trans cooler with own fan......Summit do em......
And if you are really anal two gauges ........one measuring fluid in and one fluid out.....
Overheated auto boxes just don't deliver the goods.....
Now......how do I know that :hysterical:
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I'm thinking ignition timing or too weak fuel mixture at small throttle openings.
What ignition system are you running?
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Is your fan wired around the right way? And what speed were you doing on the motorway?
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good point
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It's Hei dizzy. Carb is sooty - was sooty after American muscle 'expert' tuned it and it's still sooty - does that mean owt in connection to overheating?
What would carb look like if engine ran too advanced?
I believe the gearbox is cooled via the rad - how do I check for blocked oil cooler?
Jim (sunderland4x4) did the fan so im guessing it's correctly wired.
And speed was a genuine 50-65mph max - im still running it in so not caning it. I have tried running slower or faster once its hot but it changes nowt.
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If the transmission cooler in the rad was blocked, the trans would be getting too hot but the rad would not.
Easy to check out.
Disconnect the pipes and GENTLY blow it through with a very low pressure.
Might be worth rigging up temp sensors in the inlet and outlet so you can find out exactly what is going on.
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the fact that you do not have a separate cooler may be you problem
the auto box is over heating your rad
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if it overheats at motorway speeds it deffo wont be the fans they cease to be effective above about 35ish mph
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lets get this right it only overheats when moving at 'speed' not off roading?
if so a couple of things come to mind, mixture and timing as mentioned and I would also check if the body/winch/bumper mods have changed the airflow, it is possible to create a high pressure area behind the rad that can cancel out the fan, this would only happen at speed.
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here is a dumb one for you are you sure the bottom hose is good ? i spent about six weeks fretting about all sorts of problems on a chief i owned with exactly your symptoms
i eventually discovered just before tearing down for head work that at just over half revs the bottom hose slowly sucked itself flat closing the flow off and overheating and opening when returned to tickover
the reinforcing spring had rotted and collapsed new hose no problem
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Good point
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options for oil cooler
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30-rows-High-Performance-Transmission-Engine-Aluminum-Oil-Cooler-Silver-Fan-/261150376716?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3ccdc6830c#ht_3674wt_1001
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Ok I suppose cheapest first:
bang it up to overheating and check the bottom hose isnt collapsing
if it isnt ....
then take the winch off and see what happens ....
makes sense?
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options for oil cooler
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30-rows-High-Performance-Transmission-Engine-Aluminum-Oil-Cooler-Silver-Fan-/261150376716?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3ccdc6830c#ht_3674wt_1001
cheers dood :greggmo:
price is right
is it easy (ie not £££sss) to fit?
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All sounds like sensible ideas, is it a TH400? I've heard they can get a bit warm so separate cooler is definitely a good idea and will only help temps. Oil cooler isn't too hard to fix, just needs to be mounted and connected up - will need more fluid after fitting too. Bottom hose problem happens on XJs too, check the price of a replacement, if it's not stupid just change it, there's not really a negative to having new hoses.
Sent from my MZ604 using Tapatalk
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Yup TH400 - bottom hose looks good but gotta ring lightys 2mrw anyway
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read though some useful info and its uk based
http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/stuff-wanted/th400-oil-cooler-fittings-52047
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Clagged up rad core? Internally, not mud on the outside.
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Luckily that is one i can def discount - when Jim did the 401 he had to spend 30 mins clearing all the mud out of the rad once he had taken it off
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first thing you really need to measure the temperature of the coolant going into the radiator and coming out. the bigger the number difference between the two means the radiator is working effectively. if the number is small then the radiator is not working due to the lack of airflow.
with the gearbox cooler running in the radiator is not something new and it is a very effective way of keeping the gearbox matched to the running temp of the engine.
with the new fans fitted what temperature have you set for them to operate, if its 100 then quite possibly you might need to drop the setting to 95 and see how that runs.
running at slow speeds the temperature is acceptable but at motorway it over heats. Normally this should be fine as the air is forced through the rad into the engine bay. possible lack of flow out of the bay might be an issue or there is no suitable shroud around the cooling fans. Taking into light what Nosebolt mentioned if the shroud is not adequate what could be happening is that you are creating a low pressure in front of the car which is then pulling the hot air from the engine bay and pushing it back again through the rad which in turn starts to "superheat" the all ready hot air. Seen this happen.
Rather than throw money review the setup you have around the rad, maybe use some card to improve the existing fan shroud. But personally i would see what happens with the temperatures going in and out of the rad during motorway running.
if you have a collapsed support spring in the lower hose as Bubba has indicated then slide inside a plastic support, an empty mastic tube body cut to length will provide adequate support.
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Lost bout 2-3 litres of coolant yesterday so its def not just gauge buggered
Is this shroud enuff:
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not definitive but as you can see the floor then there is a chance it may be aero related, but would test hose first, get it warm and then see how easy to squash hose by hand, if you can deform it then fit a new hose
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I'm underneath anyway as changing oil and spotted Jim has fitted this - which I assume negates the hose collapse problem
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depends how long the other end is, if its longer than the diameter then still check it as it may still be possible for it to crush under vacume
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Luckily that is one i can def discount - when Jim did the 401 he had to spend 30 mins clearing all the mud out of the rad once he had taken it off
I mean inside inside, where the coolant goes. With the engine hot, make sure the radiator core is hot all over.
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Ok cheers Mike
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Have you got the overflow bottle in place so that when the pressure spits out of the overflow by the rad cap it is captured in the bottle.......and then say phoned back in when the engine cools??
Without the bottle you will lose coolant.
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It would be interesting to see it filmed with an infra red camera.
Don't suppose that helps much unless you're lucky enough to own one.
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No infrared camera :003:
The overflow bottle is in place, and that is where i spotted the steam pipeing from its overflow pipe when i pulled up at home yesrday
Will order a new sender and thermostat 2mrw and see where that leads.
If that improves nowt then will whip the winch off and see what happens - if that is at fault then I may stick the X9 superwinch on instead as looks mildly more streamline with its plastic cover thing - would seem an odd problem tho considering how many trucks have winches - would be just my luck :banghead:
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And check that the cap is good as that was the root of a coolant loss prob on the ZJ...... Seal had gone hard on the cap and water under pressure was getting past the cap and overflow hose to the atmosphere.
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:iagree: also had the same problem with drain cock not sealing
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Ok cheers, it was new bout 3 yrs ago but will replace anyway
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I'm just wondering if somewhere like Maplins would sell cheap thermocouples that would allow you to measure your inlet and outlet temperature on the move.
Obviously do all the simple steps first and see if that cures it.
But if it turns into Mission Impossible it might be a way of pinning down the problem.
Basically is the problem an abnormal amount of heat being produced, or a normal amount of heat but no cooling from the rad?
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this would do the job me thinks
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-channel-K-Type-Digital-Thermocouple-Thermometer-6802-II-4x-probes-BGA-HVAC-/161020598313?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item257d935829
this ones cheaper
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Thermometer-2-K-Type-Thermocouple-Sensor-1300-C-/110876330008?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item19d0be8818
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you haven't got large great gaps round the front of the rad where you have removed bits and pieces have you?
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Don't think so, it's St still a stock sized rad
BJZJ - Cheers :greggmo:
So I assume I run it to overheating and then jump out and check temp on top and bottom hose?
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yep
you need to put the ends of the wires in the hoses and run it up to temp
the meter has a function to tell the difference between the sensors
thing of getting one my self
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get some card or plastic and seal the ends of the cowl to the radiator, the air flow currently is being sucked back round the front adding to your problem. It doesn't look much but at speed the airflow increases.
Plus if you can measure the in and out temps you can see how the radiator is working. removing the front winch might be the cheapest and easiest option but it wont solve the issue and you will want the winch back on at a later date.
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Radiator size can be calculated by our friends at Pirate..... Their rule of thumb is the cubic capacity of the engine should be complemented by the square inch age of the rad
So 401 cu in
400 square in of rad..... 20" x 20" etc etc........ And if it's multidirectional sooooo much the better.
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looking at pic i still consider that hose suspect ask jim if he remembers seeing the spring it is a separate spring that slips in
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That should say multicore......
Not multidirectional....... Bloody spell thingy
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Get one of these, at least you can check differences in temp, I would also be looking at water flow pressure, if you put your heater dial to hot does it affect it and how hot are the heaters.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-LCD-Non-Contact-IR-Laser-Infrared-Thermometer-Laser-Temperature-Gun-UK-/390572922404?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5aeff5d624
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FFS that's peanuts.
BD was recently moaning about the heater being crap.
I wonder if the water pump is actually doing anything?
Couldn't be something as simple as the impeller fell off could it?
Cooling system would still work on thermo syphon.
Up to a point.
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heater is shite, but that is the fan, there is heat that comes out of it but just not with any vigour - and it doesnt affect the temp of the engine
is a 16 psi radiator cap a 16 psi radiator cap or am I looking for somnething specific?
cheers Georgen - FJ is right - that is peanuts! will it be as accurate as BJZJ thing?
that thing on the hose extends inside - how far would the spring go?
will look into blocking the shroud totally
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thats what im thinking, semi blocked or pump failure, when its up to running temp like normal, is top and bottom hose on rad the same temp or in the same ballpark, also the pipes that go to you heater matrix, one in and one out are these hot, also are the hoses hard as fook, soft as fook or somewhere in the middle to squeeze.
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Infrared thermometer is great for checking temps all over the Jeep and accurate to 2-5 degrees even the cheapo ones.
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just make sure you read temps from the same range as in distance from what you are reading and point gun straight at it.
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:imwitstupid:
Closer the better
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infrared ordered
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Ade,
As mentioned earlier in the thread this could well be the gearbox, my cj doesn't overheat these days in normal circumstances, but on longer journey's it gets hot, both to and from breakout it got a bit hot at the end of the journey, and spewed some atf out.
You could have fried an egg on the transmission tunnel by the time I got home,which I think is down to the big tyres / gearing and the stock cooler in the rad not being able to keep up. A TH400 uses 25bhp to make it work in normal circumstances, this must be released as heat!
PJ
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That's interesting.
In metric terms that's about 18 KW of heat to be disipated on top of the heat from the engine.
Was there ever any resolution of the "grilled mature cheddar" mystery?
I have an idea that it might have been the festered gunge on the TH400 case.
What axle ratios are you running with those 35" tyres?
MIGHT possibly be causing excessive heat to be generated by the transmission? ??
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axles are 4.88
cheers PJ - I may sling an trans cooler on anyway just for the heck of it - that fuel injected CJ I had also ran one
so: temp sender, thermostat, water pump, transmission cooler
I guess its not finished yet then :lol_hitting:
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180 or 195 degree thermostat?
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You running a Milemarker part time kit with the 16% raise in gearing or the standard ratio?
I only found out last night that they were available with standard ratio.
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Dunno about the stat.
I usually fit a hot one cos I like the heater nice n toasty in the winter.
Got my own theory about transmission fluid coolers.
Run the fluid through the independent cooler first then through the internal one you got now.
That will stabilise the temperature so even on freezing cold winter days the fluid returns to the transmission at about 85º C
I hope that makes some sort of sense.
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Milemarker 2wd part time with 16% overdrive
And the cheese smell never came back so must have been something getting burnt off after the rebuild
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When fitting a trans cooler you could also fit a temp gauge for it and then be able to monitor it.
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Hmmm.
Gearing sounds about right actually.
For Highway use anyway.
Just worked it out you're about 10% higher geared than my old black cherk.
That always felt well pokey with a 360 and 4 bbl carb, a little undergeared even.
Yours should be fine with a 401
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FFS that's peanuts.
BD was recently moaning about the heater being crap.
I wonder if the water pump is actually doing anything?
Couldn't be something as simple as the impeller fell off could it?
Cooling system would still work on thermo syphon.
Up to a point.
Was also going to suggest a problem with the pump. A stock fault on the Alfa V6 is the pump impeller getting loose on the shaft. Cooling perfect at low speeds (revs), no bother in traffic etc, get it up to speed for more than a few minutes and it starts to overheat.
Could be impeller falling of pump shaft or pump drive slip maybe.
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Ordered me one of those infra red thermometers and it arrived today.
Interesting.
The ambient temperature in my bedroom is 24ºC
My skin is 29, and Dwezil is about 27.
I thought I'd be warmer than that :017:
Maybe I'm part Lizard?
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I tested all my nippers and Mrs BD and we came in at the same ish temp so its accurate in a sense
BJs shopping today - sender, fangly thermostat and fangly waterpump, rad cap, speedo cable, and some gaskets - shipping was double the cost of the parts via ups :icon_eek: luckily they also have the USPS opion which was $175 cheaper
Still undecided on the trans cooler
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Dunno about the stat.
I usually fit a hot one cos I like the heater nice n toasty in the winter.
Got my own theory about transmission fluid coolers.
Run the fluid through the independent cooler first then through the internal one you got now.
That will stabilise the temperature so even on freezing cold winter days the fluid returns to the transmission at about 85º C
I hope that makes some sort of sense.
If you have a thermostat on your trans cooler then on cold days in deepest Kent Snow it should bypass the rad/ cooler until up to working temp.
Also .....As JP mag did...... They had a temp gauge measuring before and one after the cooler....... So they could monitor the difference...I seem to remember they had them mounted on the windscreen pillar .....IN temp had a gauge with red lighting.....and OUT temp had blue lighting (camp or what???) and.something else to watch and fret about whilst traversing the queens own highway
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I can't think of any harm that can come from a separate trans cooler, even the XJ has one and that doesn't have a manly engine and trans.
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and.something else to watch and fret about whilst traversing the queens own highway
:hysterical: tell me about it
I know your right James, just being a tightwad TBH - the trans tunnel does kick out some heat on a journey - no fun in the summer
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Done :011:
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Ordered me one of those infra red thermometers and it arrived today.
Interesting.
The ambient temperature in my bedroom is 24ºC
My skin is 29, and Dwezil is about 27.
I thought I'd be warmer than that :017:
Maybe I'm part Lizard?
stick it in your ear
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Got a separate trans cooler on the Laredo.
Factory fitted by the look of it.
Can't remember if it had a stat or if the main rad had the internal cooler too.
Dunno if that means that all the Chrysler 727 boxes had them?
Maybe part of an option package?
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I'm running a 9 row cooler on the xj, which bypasses the rad and standered cooler. It's mounted where the viscous fan would be. I don't have temp senders (would like them though) but i assume its doing the job as I have yet to blow a seal as has happened to the last two I had.
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According to the 81 to 86 manual you should probably have a seperate cooler as well as the radiator one.
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Weird coz i thought I was 79 but it has cruise and that is 81 onwards as well
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After 30-35 years who can say what is original with any degree of certainty.
Remember that every time you see a CJ7 or CJ5 with a 360 fitted (or even a 401) then some poor FSJ has been weighed in to donate that engine.
Someone has probably liberated the cruise control from such a vehicle.
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According to the 81 to 86 manual you should probably have a seperate cooler as well as the radiator one.
Cheers Dave
IIRC I can't remember any of my J series rads NOT having the internal cooler.
So that is probably right.
So basically what Ade could do with is to find someone breaking a 81-91 FSJ :017:
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Hang on - is this not solved with the transmission cooler I have just wedged out for?
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Ordered me one of those infra red thermometers and it arrived today.
Interesting.
The ambient temperature in my bedroom is 24ºC
My skin is 29, and Dwezil is about 27.
I thought I'd be warmer than that :017:
Maybe I'm part Lizard?
We use similar devices at work, except ours cost over £200 each :icon_eek: The quoted accuracy is ±1ºC.
From my test just now, skin temperature will vary from 27ºC exposed areas on the hand to 32ºC covered parts of the legs and arms.
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up bum is best :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
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The voice of experience :017:
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You have no idea what u can inflict on undergraduates in the name of science :lol_hitting:
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Freddie is running an external cooler (if that's any help to picture it):
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8118/8656152354_883c720b36_b.jpg)
The OEM rad does have the lower transmission cooler, but nothings plumbed into it.
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hmmm now I had a spare front end with a cooler like that, but Im fooked if I can remember what I did with it
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Personally I would say if your cooling system was working correctly, unless you were raging it about by the scruff of the neck on a really hot days like we might have two a year, it should be able to cope. first thing I would do is start again, rad off and flushed out both ways, change thermostat , waterpump and remove all pipes to check were each pipe attaches too has not semi blocked up causing reduced flow, take pipes off heater matrix at bulkhead and flush this out both ways, if your water system flows through you inlet manifold check this for blockages too, once you are happy everything is clear, put together and fill with water only, make sure you have no airlocks, some engines are a swine for air locks. you can then fill system with water only and run up to temp and make sure you heaters are on hot, you dont need heater fan running, measure everything with your temp sensor, once thermostat opens after a few minutes you should have a rad equally hot from top to bottom by touch and no cold spots or pipes, flex pipes and move them up and down if you suspect air lock. Once your happy with temp and stable, you can drain and refill with water/coolant, after all no point keep chucking coolant on the floor everytime you remove a hose.
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Personally I would say if your cooling system was working correctly, unless you were raging it about by the scruff of the neck on a really hot days like we might have two a year, it should be able to cope. first thing I would do is start again, rad off and flushed out both ways, change thermostat , waterpump and remove all pipes to check were each pipe attaches too has not semi blocked up causing reduced flow, take pipes off heater matrix at bulkhead and flush this out both ways, if your water system flows through you inlet manifold check this for blockages too, once you are happy everything is clear, put together and fill with water only, make sure you have no airlocks, some engines are a swine for air locks. you can then fill system with water only and run up to temp and make sure you heaters are on hot, you dont need heater fan running, measure everything with your temp sensor, once thermostat opens after a few minutes you should have a rad equally hot from top to bottom by touch and no cold spots or pipes, flex pipes and move them up and down if you suspect air lock. Once your happy with temp and stable, you can drain and refill with water/coolant, after all no point keep chucking coolant on the floor everytime you remove a hose.
BD has just gone to have a lye down after reading that :hysterical:
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I may have to resort to a landy garage down this way :icon_eek:
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Give it a crack, start at beginning and go through it, apart from waterpump and thermostat the rest is labour, yours is free the garage aint, if there is any restriction in any one bit it will give you the trouble your having, is there no members in your area that could lend a hand, have a laugh a sarnie and a cold one?
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I think just the weight of the modified truck and the 401 is going to get to the capacity of a 30 yr old cooling system design - it shouldn't be as often as you've had but I think a separate trans cooler, the big fans you've got AND a good condition cooling system should hold up to the modded truck.
It's an XJ site but Go-Jeep has a section on his website that shows how bonnet vents work differently in different location and at different speeds. that might be something to consider if the current plan doesn't completely finish the job.
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Cheers gents. The cooler is beyond me but I have a weeks holiday spare so can book that off for the rest :003:
I'm think there must be summink in the trans cooler see in as it hasn't got one and it would appear it should have
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My head hurts :banghead:
I need to go get some sleep and I don't have time to scrutinise all these posts again.
Has the possibility of a slowly leaking head gasket or porous casting been completely eliminated?
Yeah usually when a gasket blows it massively over pressures the system and dumps most of the coolant.
But what if it were a slow leak.
Like a slow puncture on a tyre.
What if it only leaks when the engine is at running temperature.
Just a thought.
When you've eliminated the obvious you gotta consider the unlikely :017:
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bonnet vents
front = motorway (low pressure at front of bonnet pulls out the air from behind the rad pack)
rear = slow speed (air gets pushed out from the engine bay by the cooling fan)
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Very good that Dave...
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Mine are above the exhaust headers
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Never had any cooking issues with mine.
Bog stock apart from the carb inlet and possibly cam.
Thrashed it well.
Same transmission and overall gearing ( tyres calculated)
So what's the big difference :017:
Ride Height. .
Mine was bog stock on 31s
Bulldog is running 7" lift plus 2" on the tyres.
Difficult to say what that's doing to the air flow under the vehicle.
Digital camera on video take and paper streamers :017:
A bit Micky Mouse but just might work.
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4" on the tyres but kno wot u mean.
BJS let me down on the flow looser 180 thermostat, only have 195, but have found a 160 degree flowkooler one on summit racing
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No it's 2" on the tyres.
You gotta work on the radius not the diameter.
Not uncommon to find the stat completely missing on old Landies - Billy Bodgers first response to overheating.
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3" then :003:
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It looks as if size is important after all :098:
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Anything on the IFSJA forum about lifted trucks suffering cooling problems at highway speeds :017:
I'm kinda thinking that if turbulence from the front axle caused a build up of air pressure under the hood, the resulting air flow through the rad might be close to zero :017: :017:
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Gearing doesn't entirely compensate for bigger tyres in my experience, even if you add a bit more than the maths says you need. There's still an increase in strain and loss of power feeling. This all tends to mean more heat
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:iagree: As I said on other gearing posts....... The YJ on 33s and 4.56 was a little hot rod but on 35s was a dog that laboured in top at 50 gagging for a down change........ And ran HOT above 65
So that was why I had elec pusher fan to help.........
Slow down to 50 and all went cool.........
Never got more than warm offroad........
Got a feeling this is the root of Ade's probs.......
Also try the measurement trick square ins for cubic ins....... 401ci needs 401 square ins of cooling.
:icon_super:
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Ade has gone from ( I think) 4.10 to 4.88 on the axles which lowers by 19%
But fitted a Milemarker kit which raises by 16%.
Self defeating really.
Time to loose the Milemarker and go back to the standard Quadratrac :017:
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Milemarker kit was a bit $$$$$ back in the day.
Got a feeling good old 2 wheel drive with FWHUBS will get you back in the zone gear wise and I guess is going to cost you a Dana300 .......
Oops £££££££££
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The mile marker is a p/t 2wd job
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And would the 16% overdrive not put less stress on the engine at m/way speeds? :017:
You are right tho its gone 4. 10 to 4.88
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You have the 16% overdrive Unit? Dear God.. You may as well kill yourself now.! :die: but I'm a kind hearted fellow and I will relive you of this demon and give you £50 in return :97: that's what friends are for
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Trawling my brain cell on this one :icon_twisted:
But does the Milemarker overdrive fit after the BW quadratrac TC?
Seem to remember Andrew at Lighties saying that the Tc is prone to not liking being run in 2 WD
Much the same as it doesn't like much more than 250 horses up its jacksie.....something to do with the chain drive pulling the 2 gears towards each other and.......
BANG, SPLIT TC.
Might be wrong but think that's the just of what he told me :icon_super:
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You have the 16% overdrive Unit? Dear God.. You may as well kill yourself now.! :die: but I'm a kind hearted fellow and I will relive you of this demon and give you £50 in return :97: that's what friends are for
will swap you for a 401 :icon_winkle:
did some googlin before buying and there are doods that dont like it for hardcore wheeling but didnt hear of any going bang :icon_eek:
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Trawling my brain cell on this one :icon_twisted:
But does the Milemarker overdrive fit after the BW quadratrac TC?
Seem to remember Andrew at Lighties saying that the Tc is prone to not liking being run in 2 WD
Much the same as it doesn't like much more than 250 horses up its jacksie.....something to do with the chain drive pulling the 2 gears towards each other and.......
BANG, SPLIT TC.
Might be wrong but think that's the just of what he told me :icon_super:
I read they don't like worn chains! Bang.. Split caseing. And since you can't buy anything other than a shit Chinese chain... New chain every service. And since the clutch packs are unavailable the 2wd kit males sence
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Clutch cones etc are a PITA I'm surprised that some enterprising individual hasn't got to grips with making replacement ones.
The Chinese chains are aledgedly good for 30-40,000 miles OEM ones maybe 100K.
Timing chain makers Cloyes apparently make a chain which is better quality than OEM but they are unavailable most of the time.
Gotta wait until they do a batch then buy enough to last the rest of your lifetime.
Long term commitment required for serious FSJ ownership :greggmo:
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I'm kinda thinking that if turbulence from the front axle caused a build up of air pressure under the hood, the resulting air flow through the rad might be close to zero :017: :017:
[/quote
again what is required is the temperature in and temperature out on the radiator, this is the only way to tell that the cooling system is working and at this point it is irrelevant what gearbox/transfer case id fitted and their respective heat generation.
if running slow is no issue then the temp difference will be large, what is needed is the temp difference running at speed where the problem is, i would expect a differential of 2-3 deg C.
If Mr Juggler is correct on the assumption that lift changes the pressure in the engine bay, then what might be a good test is fitting an under tray and see what happens. thin corrugated plastic should be good for a test plus it should clear the underside of the engine with relevant cut outs. doesnt need to be perfet as you will want to remove it quickly if required
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I have the gun Dave, hopefully will get to take a run at the weekend
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if you dont know how bad the cooling is you cant work out a repair plan
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This thread has more mystery,suspense and twists and turns than an Agatha Christie novel.
All you need now is a fat Belgium man with a dodgy accent and moustache who happens to be on holiday in Kent to work out the mystery for you.
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so when are you down this way then Dave?
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I only have one of the traits listed and i have no wish to holiday in Kent at the moment either.....
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I have no plans to come down South at the moment, as far as i know the shredders are all shredding beautifully.
We could stick your Chief through one and see how it stands up, now that would make for a good You Tube video, id pay to see that.
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Especially if he drives it in!
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It didnt reach overheating as I have just been on B roads to work and back but what goes thru the bottom pipe is about 20 degrees lower that the top pipe, plus if Im running but static and the fans are going the top pipe reduces pretty quick as well, would guesstimate about 10 degrees in under 30 sec
So its not the fans ....?
Only time it got to the edge of the red was on a dual carriageway after I had been driving for about 40 mins, so its undeniably an issue attached to that type of road
Not done any new bits yet coz Im still waiting for them :011:
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an easy and cheap way to get an indication if the problem is related to airflow would be to cut a piece of hardboard to bridge the front bumper to the axle for the full width of the car does not have to be perfect and can be fitted with tag ties its just a temp way to re-route the air for a test, once you identify a set journey that will overheat the car then fit the board and try again.
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Nice one Bruce......
Just made me think about the YJ that has a piece of rubber sheeting from just after rad to under the sump to presumably do the trick of stopping the air turbulence.
And maybe helping the cooling....
Think we might be getting somewhere
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if your getting a delta of 20 deg C then and the top hose is reducing in temperature then the radiator is doing its job, so no worries on spending much moolar fitting a bigger rad and new fans.
as i have said you now need to close the gaps from the fan shroud to the radiator, this will stop any hot air being sucked to the front of the radiator repeatedly and create an undertray for the underside of the engine which Nosebolt has also mentioned.
if you not sure what to do look at a normal modern road car as they always have one fitted. reason being is to reduce engine noise and aid in movement of air from the engine bay.
then see what happens
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I've been baffled by this thread for some time but just went back to the photo of the fan and shroud and had a brain fart!
Obviously the cooling system is doing what it is supposed to in the broad sense but is marginal or failing at speed, which is when the engine and slush box are both generating a high degree of heat.
Also we accept that the fans themselves dont give additional cooling when at speed either.
My theory is that the fan shroud is mounted too close to the back of the rad and that it is only allowing decent laminar flow through in front of the fans themselves, if the shroud was moved back a few inches to allow better flow everywhere else then the problem should go away.
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Is the buggah advanced ?? Timing that is.
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Eastry - what do u mean by back? Sorry if thats a stupid question but its me that is asking :003:
IOM - sooty carb?
I have been using the Chief all this week on B roads for up to 90 mins continuously in the mid day sun and not a problem so its 100% a motorway problem
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One extra that may have an influence is that once its been running for 30 mins or so and I floor it from crawling or standstill it has cut out a couple of times
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Further thoughts would be to make sure you include a sort of overpressure relief flaps in the surround between the rad and fan shroud so all the air pushed through from the front, as you belt down the motorway, has somewhere to go but is prevented from recirculating round to the front of the rad again.
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http://www.teamgrandwagoneer.com/cooling-system/?sort=alphaasc
rad caps with a temp guage...bottom of page
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Now that is cool :greggmo:
By the way, got the flowkooler parts direct and they only charged $12.45 shipping :icon_super:
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New thermostat, water pump, sender unit ..... and ......... fuck all difference :banghead:
More cash wasted :010:
So winch off 2mrw and buying some hardboard to make a tray to channel the air.
Was gonna tow the Chief to CF on a trailer using the XC90 (2.9 petrol) but dunno if that would be legit
Anyone know where I can buy a fancy aluminium rad in the UK before next Weds?
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Bloody hell mate. Not good and not much time. How heavy is the chief
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2000 kg stock
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What's the xc90 tow weight limit?
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With. Trailer....... Your going to be perilously close to 3.5 tonnes.......
Because I am.......to give you an idea of weight........
Daft question but if you drive 55 does that not help....???
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2250 according to the owner manual :011:
I have tried Jez, don't matter what speed - even tried tailgating lorries to use their slipstream but no good
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So it's down to the tricks of carpentry to funnel air to the rad.
I know its too late for CF but on Pirate they keep on about matching the cubic inches of the engine
to the square inches of rad....... And that's core size not overall size....... The bigger the better :icon_biggrin:
( she gagged expectantly)
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I'd guess at 2500kg for the chief and 700kg for a trailer so 3200kg, acceptable for a 3500kg rated tow car if you are sensible but doesn't sound like a good idea for the Volvo.
Odd that slower speeds don't help, have you tried blasting hot air out the heater to see if it drops temps at all, even a bit?
Very puzzling! Could be a weird air flow thing.
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:017: slipstream is still air / air being pulled so may not help
Air ducting is you best bet imho
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http://www.aaronradiator.co.uk/pages/Aluminium_Radiators.html?gclid=CMOQs6ujyMACFQLlwgodYTcAWA
Might as well go triple core if you're going to the bother of custom.
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When the ZJ was over heating, having the hot air on And the bonnet popped did make a huge difference.
Volvo should tow 3.5t ok just take it easy.
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Volvo XC90 max 2250Kg towing cap
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old skool was to have heater on full heat and fan on high and windows open as a help to taking heat out of the system.
as said previous, no point throwing money at something where you don't know the root cause.
thermostat is only for engine start up (kettle and hot water will confirm operation)
water pump, water is still pumping round.
radiator is it sufficient to cool engine? O.E then it should be.
fan shroud if no shroud and a single fan then this is where you really need to look. seal the engine side of the rad to the shroud so all the air will be sucked through by the fan from across the rad. (No COST use cardboard to start with)
if this improves then put an under tray on the jeep and see if that has an effect. (Use cardboard but be mind full not to put the card by hot exhaust)
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Just bring the XC90 its 4wd isnt it????
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Cheers gents - freeby tricks first and then rad but wont be able to do that before CF
Its a shit :icon_sad:
Reckon the xc will be used at this rate anyway but not round the site lol - will be making it a shorter weekend tho if I cant drive around
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Sods law that usually there are some off road ZJs for under £1k but none about so I cant even go that route for the weekend :jpshakehead:
All I can find is this but its way up north anyway: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Isuzu-Trooper-3-2-V6-taxed-and-tested-4x4-off-road-/191310550881?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item2c8aff5761
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Lost the thread of this, no pun intended, did you ever fit the extra trans cooler??
I was going to try one of these, self regulating....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B-M-70255-SuperCooler-Automatic-Transmission-Cooler-/161404552983?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2594760717
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have got a transmission cooler but not fitted yet - the transmission currently uses the rad and im not convinced it will help the air flow so its a last resort job
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OK, It'll be my first resort, I'm convinced mine is related to big tyres and not low enough gearing generating loads of heat in the transmission at speed, I'll arrive at Cheapfest spewing ATF as per normal after a long drive....
Personally I think airflow becomes a non-issue when driving a brick, but what do I know, when i eventually get around to fitting the cooler i'll let you know the results :icon_biggrin:
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It's also a skills issue :011:
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Can anyone pop to yours and fit the trans cooler, it could go somewhere as a temporary measure held in place with cable ties and jubilee clips. In fact I'm sure you could do that. I think it is likely to help a lot.
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Also another maybe for the future.
Fender well headers ......exit at the back of the inner fender and over the chassis rail, taking all that heat away from the engine bay. Will mean running zorsts down the side and redoing what ya got.
In addition exhaust wrap the headers to keep heat in until they are over the chassis rail.
I am sure a concerted Birtys council of minds can get it sorted for Turkey Hunt at least :icon_super:
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I used to have that on my MX5 (ok very different vehicle) but it was running 240bhp and a turbo.
Produced a lot of heat. Standard radiator did cope once I had covered the headers and top of down pipe with http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/heat-shielding-protection/pitking-products-volcano-exhaust-wrap or similar.
I did change the radiator for a 3 core alloy once when funds allowed.
Got to be worth a try as a help.
Can you not do the above, make an under tray and card to channel to air inside the engine bay. Take it for a test drive, windows and heaters on if needed?
You got to be at CF with an off roader.
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Yup, what Jay said. You could get the exhaust wrap and fit it in a couple of days, it can only help and isn't big moolar.
I have no idea what the transmission lines look like on the Chief but am sure you can find one, cut a short section out and jubilee clip the trans cooler it. It has to be mounted and not flapping around but could be a case of a couple of self cutting screws into inner body panel or chassis. Saturday morning job even with a few tea breaks.
I know I'm happy to bring tools and fixings and parts to maybe make it more permanent if you can get it to Cheapfest and I'm sure others feel the same.
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Cheers James :greggmo:
Exhaust wrap on order
Winch off 2mrw
Hardboard or perspex tray 2mrw
Change clocks as well 2mrw just in case (dear gawd it better not be that :003: )
Mechanic booked (hopefully) for trans cooler but gotta find pipes
And best of all offer from DJRR6 to use his custom 3 core steel rad off his 360 - top birty karma :icon_super:
If that doesn't work I'm fooked :die:
Or I have to take a 12 hr trip via b - roads :die: :die:
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Normally I am wrong but I think you are looking at the rad. The same rig runs in a lot higher temps then the UK without undertrays, hood vents or exhaust wraps. They may all help the issue but not fix it.
I had an old FJ40 with a chevy 283 in it that ran great. After awhile I swapped in a chevy 350 and the thing would get quite hot after being on the road for awhile. Off road and around town she was fine but moving at speed it would overheat. The radiator for the old engine just wasnt up to the task of getting rid of all the heat over extended periods of time from the new engine.
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Yet the rad on my j20 with a 401 is a 2 core... And it has the heavy 8000lb package too. Looks original as rest of truck was
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Yet the rad on my j20 with a 401 is a 2 core... And it has the heavy 8000lb package too. Looks original as rest of truck was
Same autobox?
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Personally I think airflow becomes a non-issue when driving a brick, but what do I know,
your confusing air flow with aerodynamics.
a rad can only be efficient if air is channeled through it, air will take the route of least resistance so if it can go around the rad easier than go through it the rad won't have the air to work
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Yet the rad on my j20 with a 401 is a 2 core... And it has the heavy 8000lb package too. Looks original as rest of truck was
Same autobox?
Same set up
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you have replaced /checked that bottom hose
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Bollocking - no - forgot bout that :banghead:
Any Motorspares shop or lightys?
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Bollocking - no - forgot bout that :banghead:
Any Motorspares shop or lightys?
Lightys
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better get up early then :icon_eek:
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2nd result of the day (1st is the rad loan) is I had a brainwave about the board for the tray - I have a sheet of this left over from a job:
http://www.cabp.co.uk/Roofing-Materials/Corrugated-Sheets/Onduline-Bitumen-Corrugated/2M-x-950mm-Ondalux-Corrugated-Roofing-Sheet-BLACK_ROLB2BK.htm
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Don't get it too close to anything hot cos it will melt / burn
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may give corrupted results, depending on which way round you have the corrugation, in line won't seal and transverse will give turbulent airflow.
for the initial test I would go with hardboard, and if you get the results you need I have enough 3mm ally diamond plate here you can have to make the permanent piece
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damn :banghead:
trip to wickes and hardboard then, but gonna have to get a big sheet and get it cut
cheers Bruce :greggmo:
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I'm going to bring a digital temperature infra red laser pointy thingy with me and measure where the heats coming from on the way up to Cheapfest, before I spank any more cash on my money pit....
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They are useful, I have a cheapo one that works great.
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And are great fun taped to the top of a toy gun and pointed at people.....
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New bottom hose only £9 from lightys :icon_eek:
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Delivered in line with the replacement radiator?
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Yup, both Tues AM :greggmo:
Sheet of hardboard in back of car as well
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Hope it sorts it,been a bit of a mission so far.
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:werdsign: u and me both buddy :eusa_clap:
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Ade
Just having a rethink and the rad that I sent is custom for mine and my cj is running a manual ax15 gearbox therefore if honest I have no idea whether it has the smaller trans cooler on the bottom of it
If not you will def need to put the seperate trans cooler on it which will help with cooling as you will have 3 cores of engine only cooling with a seperate rad purely for transmission.
This will presumably assist with stopping heat conduction between the 2 systems and there are some cheap zj rads out there but appreciate time is tight.....
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have a read of this
http://jeep-xj.info/HowtoRadiatorRestrictor.htm
it may be your problem as it only happens when your ruining at speed
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Cheers for the heads up on both gents :greggmo:
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Dunno if it's useful but some pics of shroud etc
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*
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I wouldn't think you'd have a problem with that setup, it looks pretty spot on to me (assuming fans come on at the right temperature and stuff).
Based on Paul's comments about how hot his transmission gets on a long run I'm still inclined to think the trans cooler can only be a good thing and also that maybe that bottom hose that Bubba reminded you off is a definite one to change for new.
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Rad doesn't fit :banghead:
So that's that then
Either is the dulvo and no off road or load up the Chief and dnd hit the b-roads for a tedious long journey that will probably end in disaster :102:
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Gearbox cooler fitted yet?
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Nope - didn't seem.to have time after chuffing around :011:
I think it'sthenet's try the b road chief on Thurs and if that is a fuck up its dulvo on friday
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bottom hose fit it
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what about bottom hose and belly pan?
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Can't the rad be 'adjusted'
It was built for the cj grille but is there room to make it fit?
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Rad is for manual so no trans cooler but takes up entire rad space. He says new trans cooler doesnt have fittings
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Back roads and a log drive I think ade. Can you bring the teams cooler with you for installation on friday night or something
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fit the hose and belly pan for the road trip, remove pan while off road and refit for journey home, cant make it any worse
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take the trans cooler and rad and let someone have a go at it
At an absolute push the trans cooler could be for in front of the grille as long as it is kept clean of dry mud
If not long term solution is I can give you the guys number who built mine and see if they can custom make one for you
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Cheers gents, will bring it all with me
Just checking with him on hose - would hope so as he had to take the other off
Winch is off so better airflow anyway
Oil change before I leave - better get up early :die:
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From mechanic: "New hose off as need to cut to length as they have put sensor switch in it"
..............?
Hose from lightys
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Sensor switch for your electrics fans I'd guess, to tell them when to come on.
Bring all the parts with you and go for the very slow and steady journey to Ribbo.
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if the bottom hose cant be repaced in time or it's support spring has failed, use an old mastic tube cut to size and slid inside the hose to support it to stop it from collapsing. the bottom hose from the rad should be slightly larger than the mastic tube, worked as a temp fix on an xj
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I have so much to do 2mrw morning and its a 7hr journey via B roads so I will just tempt fate and set out like Scott of the Antarctic - I figure worse comes to worse I get the AA to deliver me and parts to Cheapfest :003:
TBH I doubt I will even have time for the oil change so will have to do that there - anyone know how much a 360/401 takes? I have a frickin great drum I use here but cant pack that - will have to buy some
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Just bring all the parts with you and it'll keep us busy and away from getting pissed too quickly! I'd guess that a couple of 5 litre containers would be more than enough. The 4.0 takes 5.7l and my WK takes 9.5l but that's a crazy German diesel.
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:023:
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A 360 holds about 4.5l, the th400 on the other hand needs a bit more than that, could be as much as 8l
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Done some infrared as we running after 25 miles and nowt over 94 and rad reduces it by 20, altho headers are 325 :icon_eek:
Still overheated tho coz I'm impatient and chanced a stretch of motorway :die:
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Anyone near a local motor factors that do heat reducing exhaust header bandage?
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What temp is it running when it's overheating? According to your shotgun
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There is a motor factors not far from ribbo
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Potentially now sorted. The trip home will be the confirmation of corrective fix.
Temp sensor relocated to top hose
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lets hope so :icon_super:
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Fingers crossed for the test journey home tomorrow
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Good look Ade
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Come on Ade, did you or didn't you?
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Nope :010:
Motorway was overheating still - first services req 5 litres of water :icon_eek:
So B roads again - left at 10 am and im currently waiting for the AA in an essential garage in Denham :banghead:
I have shredded 3 alternator belts on journey home :017: one of which wasn't fitted by me so I'm guessing I have a problem there
However I have given up as the gauge says perfect temp but the cloud of steam suggested otherwise .......
Should have fitted that rad :003:
Sid was made up as he got to drive across 2 lanes and 100 yrs of dual carriageway while I pushed :lol_hitting:
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And to complete my miser look what exceptionally generous dood pulled up to help and spent 30 mins with me while I changed the last belt - he even lent me his battery to get running
These lardy doods are turning out to be pretty cool :greggmo:
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Cracked block or head? Get the cooling system checked for combustion gases.
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it appears that the engine doesn't have a full flow through the block, as a guess a restriction or blockage somewhere. flow is acceptable at slow speed but not at a fast pace. would be interesting to see the pressure change in the coolant at slow and fast conditions. At a guess this may be quite a difference.
only an assumption.
Mike, wouldn't a cracked block or head have been noticeable from heavy offroading at weekend, since the jeep didn't boil over?
adding of 5ltrs of water is unnerving since it was filled after hose replacment and temp sensor relocation
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Do you have some sort of voodoo curse on you? Feck pal you have no luck
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Get the coolant sniffed.
Sounds like a cracked head to me,hope I is wrong.
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Some traditions never die :003:
Man do i need a shower and some kip
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Feel your hurt BD just glad you feel up to doing it year on year.........but give yourself a break....
Ya got to get it sorted..........
Then.........
Trailer queen
Kinda makes you feel OK when the Red Mist descends......cos you know you can still get home....
It has taken me 16 years to reach this Merlot induced state of transcendental cosmic realisation.
:icon_super: :icon_twisted:
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try some k-seal or steel seal and see what happens. wont fix the cause but should seal any potential cracks.
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Feeling for you Ade, I know the time and money you have in the truck as well as the love for it. Just hope you can sort it and get to fully enjoy it.
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Cheers gents, I will beat the fucker into submission :003:
Was absolutely awesome off road - not stuck anywhere (but I missed the sheep dip out) which was v unusual for me :003:
CJ build will get shelved for even longer until this one is beaten - next year will see me drivin there and back in the Chief guarenteed :icon_super:
(unless I have my horse lorry sorted by then)
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got to confirm it went everywhere, especially following a little cj5, got to the point where i did think it wont do that but the chief did.
shame the cooling wasn't fully fixed and couldn't be traced without a motorway run
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Ade, I think that you have got a crack in an exhaust port through to a water way in one of the heads.
The higher the speed the hotter the flow of exhaust gas.
This would open the crack more
The water gets blow out of the exhaust and not into the engine itself
Causing you to over heat
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try something on the lines of this before a full strip down. downside is that it doesn't detect which bank or where.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Block%20Tester%20Kit%20leak%20cracked%20head%20Test%20Tools%20BT500&_itemId=300260930082
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It does blow - and that was a developed fault so it' entirely possible the timing of that could be connected to it starting to overheat
Don't forget I had done about 900 miles of running in (approx) before it started
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Oh BD :icon_sad:
Sorry to hear that the mighty chief had to be recovered again.
Sort it m8, once and for all !!! :greggmo:
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Cheers dood :greggmo:
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he's fitting a 258 lump
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you need a real engine fan the draw on them poncy leky things is killing the belts
and have to say i am wondering about porus block/head problems
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I had a similar conversation about cracked head / exhaust port with Robsrotti tonight. Interesting that CJ Paul also ran out of electrickery due to those fans running lots.
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Great minds think alike or fools seldom differ as my granny used to say. I had the same conversation with ade yesterday!
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As before I can send down the thermal camera down and get it onto a road to overheat it then view and video
That way at least you can see if there is a crack in the head etc as it will show up clearly or at least see which side of engine or whether the rad not performing etc
I am reliably informed by one of the guys at work it can also be aimed at the woman on reception for surprising image results but that is not covered by the warranty...
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I am reliably informed by one of the guys at work it can also be aimed at the woman on reception for surprising image results but that is not covered by the warranty...
Prey tell me MORE !!
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With pics!!
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Ade, no electric fan will move as much air as the stock mechanical fan with a shroud, I arrived home on Saturday slightly hot but with no electricity left, my Mondeo fans pull 25 amps which is quite a lot.
Have just ordered one of these
http://www.amazon.com/70268-SuperCooler-Automatic-Transmission-Cooler/dp/B000CIGE9G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411071380&sr=8-2&keywords=b+and+m+transmission+cooler.
If this doesn't do the trick the old mechanical fan, which is currently hanging on the garage wall winking at me, might make an appearance, will just need to avoid deep water or shroud / waterproof the electrics
paul
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no point throwing radiators at the jeep when it still produces excessive heat, cure the fault is always the best option where possible
putting in 5ltrs of water confirms there is a leak somewhere this really needs tracing but with that much heat generated by the engine and not being removed, any trace of lost coolant would evaporate with next to no evidence.
you can buy electric fans that move different CFM of air.
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As before I can send down the thermal camera down and get it onto a road to overheat it then view and video
That way at least you can see if there is a crack in the head etc as it will show up clearly or at least see which side of engine or whether the rad not performing etc
I am reliably informed by one of the guys at work it can also be aimed at the woman on reception for surprising image results but that is not covered by the warranty...
I will be in touch mate - thank you :greggmo:
Im just gonna play with my new motor for a week or so before I revisit the Chief - I figure if I ignore it and make it jealous it may bring it back in line :003:
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got a teraflex fan laying around somewhere that should fit a V8, yours if you want it
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cheers dood - may take you up on that
did much trawling of US forums and 50% the fans are magic, and 50% went back to stock
the new alternator is a super high output job so in theory - especially now the cabling has been sorted - should be up to the job
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How many amps is it BD i never asked and i am now intrigued???
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I will dig out the sheet 2mrw mate - not the sorta info I can commit to memory :003:
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It was pumping well over 50 Amps in to that flat battery on tickover so must be fairly large.
Ignoring your excitement at receiving "The Pimp mobile" don't forget to get a new starter solenoid for that temporary joint we did....
oh who am i trying to kid, we will mend it next years cheapfest and i will remember to bring the proper crimpers this time.........
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:icon_winkle: I knew we understood each other :003:
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a repair markee next year
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Good plan
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I shall get a banner made for it: "The Temple of Bulldog"
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The Temple of Bulldog, where the head cleric sacrifices Jeeps and the congregation tries to bring them back to life
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:hysterical: :icon_super: :hysterical:
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The Temple of Bulldog, where the head cleric sacrifices Jeeps and the congregation tries to bring them back to life
Sounds like Satanists to me!
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"..........because the Devil has a number and it is a human number........
The number of the beast is 401.................... :hysterical:
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The Temple of Bulldog, where the head cleric sacrifices Jeeps and the congregation tries to bring them back to life
Sounds like Satanists to me!
having second thoughts about being one of his KY apostles :003:
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667 neighbour of the beast
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Donk the fastest welder in the west
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no exhaust gases in coolant
pressure testing confirms no issues on that score either
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
time to hand it over to someone for some no doubt hideously expensive investigations :010:
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Look on the bright side Ade. No leaks and gases escaping via dubious gaskets and no cracked heads.......
Otherwise you would be looking at high Zoot ally heads and a Holley fuel injection system to massage out that extra 75-100 BHP
:icon_biggrin: :icon_super:
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Try restricting the coolent flow as in the go jeep link I posted. You just need a piece of ptfe chopping board. Cheap test before you go spending
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Been reading thru this thread again and if I understand it BD you had over heat issues then dropped in another engine and still have them ... is there anything on the new engine that was common to both of em ??
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... is there anything on the new engine that was common to both of em ??
Yup ................................................................................ the gangsta behind the wheel, init :hysterical:
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360 overheating because rad was totally blocked with mud
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Been reading thru this thread again and if I understand it BD you had over heat issues then dropped in another engine and still have them ... is there anything on the new engine that was common to both of em ??
Correctomundo
As far as I know:
Water pump (but that has now been replaced)
Thermostat (but that has now been replaced)
Sender (but that has now been replaced)
Carb
Edelbrock performer intake
Hedman hedders
Radiator
HEI dizzy
Altho Dutch has a v good point :003:
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Still got the bling grill on or std?
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Can't remember if we covered this before, but it wouldn't be running to lean at high road speed due to airflow thats causing it?
Bonnet vents causing ram air to filter? :017:
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Carb is sooty if anything so that would be too rich?
Admittedly old engine but vents were put in coz of overheating and they are faced to let heat out
Grill is a stock option
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Sure I mentioned this before back in the dark ages but......has your dizzy got a vacuum advance and if so is the tube perforated so air escapes.......
Had a BMW once that had that PROB so at speed it was too advanced and ran hot......... And then the head gasket went......
Head gasket replaced and new rubber advance retard vacuum hose and PROB solved....
Just another thing for you to check :hysterical:
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keep them all coming - I can at least provide the lucky mechanic a list to check
im having trouble financially committing to this all over again tho :icon_sad:
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What pressure is the radiator cap ?? If that is faulty or not rated high enough, that may cause issues, if the cooling system isnt pressurised enough the coolant wont do its job properly and maybe prematurely boiling off ... Just a thought.
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Sorry my bad - new rad cap from FSJ specialist & new bottom hose
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Has anyone given the rad a really good check over? If it was filled with mud once then I would remove it, soak and meticulously clean. It's free apart from time.
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Sure I mentioned this before back in the dark ages but......has your dizzy got a vacuum advance and if so is the tube perforated so air escapes.......
Had a BMW once that had that PROB so at speed it was too advanced and ran hot......... And then the head gasket went......
Head gasket replaced and new rubber advance retard vacuum hose and PROB solved....
Just another thing for you to check :hysterical:
Came across a V8 L*nd R**er doing that once.
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Has anyone given the rad a really good check over? If it was filled with mud once then I would remove it, soak and meticulously clean. It's free apart from time.
Got to say, with the ZJ, it took Kev thoroughly cleaning the radiator then me again before it was clear enough not to over heat.
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At what kind of speed was your ZJ getting hot Jay?
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55 and above mainly. Pottering about it was ok
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Ah okay - I was just interested to see how a dirty rad affected it, as mine runs hotter than it used to at low speeds these days.
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what are the thoughts on a new rad - if I buy a fancy pants 3 core aluminium job shall i get one for an auto or shall I get a manual one and fit the after-market separate trans cooler?
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did you ever try shielding the gap between the front valance and sump?
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yes but couldnt get anything to fit solidly - obviously that is me being a tard and will bite the bullet on that and get someone to fabricate one that can double up as a sump guard
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You need to calculate a ball park figure size rad to give you a start point, personally i think you have air flow issues, you aint got cracked or pourous engine bits, yu got new cooling system components, so its either airflow or a few channels in yur rad are blocked preventing an even flow of the coolant, i was gonna suggest the pump as i have known circulator impellers expand on the shaft when hot and stop rotating whilst the shaft still turns but as yu have a new one thats highly unlikely, below is a link to a site that has a formula for sizing a rad, hope it helps.
http://www.volksrods.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33260
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Reading between the lines it sounds like a radiator problem, seeing as thats the one thing common to both engines, i run a big ali rad on mine, i think its 4 row, horizontal, not vertical as they are supposed to be more efficient, my lecy fan rarely comes on when driving and it takes a good 10 to 15 mins to kick in when starting up from cold, the key to a good cooling system is volume of water, so the more water you can get in it the better, my falcon engine originally ran about 16 or 17 litres, in the jeep it has about 12 litres :017: runs as sweet as a nut.
Does the transmission have enough oil in it, if not it will run hot causing the water to do the same.
Another thing to do is point a infa red thermometer at different areas of the rad to see if there is any difference, ie blocked.
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Cheers both
bit thoughts on rad with trans cooler or seperate trans cooler?
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transmission cooler in with the rad
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I agree with Dave.......simple way out.....
BUT
With the hassle you have had get a monumental Summit trans cooler with thermostat and Leccy fan to keep that monster Th400 cool......
You could also go with A pillar guages that show Trans fluid temp on way into cooler and also another to show temp on. Way out......... Then you know you're cooling it ........
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I agree with Dave.......simple way out.....
BUT
With the hassle you have had get a monumental Summit trans cooler with thermostat and Leccy fan to keep that monster Th400 cool......
You could also go with A pillar guages that show Trans fluid temp on way into cooler and also another to show temp on. Way out......... Then you know you're cooling it ........
:iagree:
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since you dont know whats happening a simple swap and fit may not help, At this point you realy need to know temperatures of what the engine, radiator and transmission are doing practicality of kitting out to do this might not be in your favour. With the dash temp sensor is from the block and that appears to remain stable, this implies that you are generating enough heat into the coolant to cause it to boil and not having the ability to remove it.
If you're set on a 3 core rad (or bigger ??) then i would still look at the type with the inbuilt cooler and add an additional large cooler for the transmission in that loop and have that operated via a thermostatic valve to kep a consistent temperature.
At least then you are not using the O.E rad which could be restricted internally and the ally rad would allow for a higher flow.
how big was the original enige before the 401 swap?
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I'm sure we have mentioned this but in the past .....with engines running hot and with front hinged hood unlatched and a empty can of coke lifting it a few inches..... It ran cooler....
(Oz ......sometime in my yoof :hysterical:)
Something called air stacking........ Air getting through the grill at speed but can't get out...... And things get hot especially with large engines....... Happens a lot trying to shoehorn 454s into small spaces apparently.
So it's either bigger holes in your hood or alloy blocks under the hinge supports.......
You could try the redneck test ......you could take hood off for a blast and test....... :icon_twisted:
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blast up the motorway with no hood gets my vote
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Im all up for more vents - was thinking a big ass scoop at the front to get air in and more vents at the back to get it out again .....?
While Im here - does this have the trans cooler parts: https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product.asp?part=1974+JEEP+WAGONEER+CUSTOM+-+6.6+liter+V8+RADIATOR+All+Aluminum+3-Row+HD&part_id=40468&aaia_id=1309867
And WTF are alternator belts actually called? And the other 2 belts? Cant find the frickers anywhere online so Im guessing Im calling them the wrong thing
Dave - it was a 360, that also overheated :011:
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yes
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On page 2 of this thread you have a picture of a red anodised fitting in the bottom hose, if that fitting has the fan switch in it then its wrong, the fan switch should be in the top hose or even better in the thermostat housing,
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Cheers :023:
Was spotted at CF and moved but cheers for taking the effort to look thru the thread mate
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run it wothout a bonnet and see what happens
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what are the belts called for the alternator etc in internet land?
was gonna replace all 3 (and get some spares) but cant find the buggers anywhere :017:
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V belt
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or fan belt even though it's not used to run a fan
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I am still a fan of removing the bonnet. To much air in the engine bay getting hot.
I know it's slightly different but on Fast and Loud this week they were competing at Pikes Peak Hill Climb. The car was getting hot due to to much air and no where for it to escape under the hood. Only an issue at speed
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If you have the remains of your belts so you can see the angle of the V etc......
Then try 'Bearing Boys' I have used then in the past for strange belts of different lengths.....website is good.
They also do bearings........surprise..... All bearings should have a number on then that is universal........ Cheaper than going back to ARB for new hub bearings on the YJ way back when I changed them.
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Im happy to try bonnet off but in reality Im not gonna get v far doing that before plod say 'excuse me young man, but WTF are you up yo?'
Besides, at the moment every time I want to start it I have to jump start and that is gettin on my tits
Will have a look Jez - cheers
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Bearing in mind I have a spare Bonnet somewhere I can afford to play around - so thoughts:
Big ass scoop at front facing forwards with additional bonnets at rear and side?
Big ass scoop rear facing in front and additional bonnet vents?
Big ass scoop rear facing in centre bout 3/4 way back?
Big ass scoop x2 two rear facing backwards at sides 1/2 way back?
Big ass scoop x2 at rear facing backwards with big ass scoop in front centre front facing?
Variations on the above?
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I have a couple of spare bonnets when you ruin that one... :098:
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Here's an idea...... :icon_biggrin:
FSJ hoods are held on by the hinge/spring mech on the inside....... 4 bolts to hold hood onto the mechanism?.
I'm guessing here FSJ Birtys advise :icon_twisted:
Take one of those bolts out and get 4 tomorrow that are 30mm longer.......then I have got 4 stainless circular 30mm spacers that were seat risers that are looking for a home and are sitting idly on my workbench.
There you go instant 30mm air escape gap at rear of hood that you can do the motorway test on......
Shout if of interest..... :icon_super:
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Sounds a plan Jez :greggmo:
Will pm when I'm home cheers
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Here's an idea...... :icon_biggrin:
FSJ hoods are held on by the hinge/spring mech on the inside....... 4 bolts to hold hood onto the mechanism?.
I'm guessing here FSJ Birtys advise :icon_twisted:
Take one of those bolts out and get 4 tomorrow that are 30mm longer.......then I have got 4 stainless circular 30mm spacers that were seat risers that are looking for a home and are sitting idly on my workbench.
There you go instant 30mm air escape gap at rear of hood that you can do the motorway test on......
Shout if of interest..... :icon_super:
:iagree: dam good idea
you could run 4 nuts on each bolt to space in out
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I am a pessimist because the odds are far better then an optimist.
Big jeeps commonly run in hot climates that we dint see in the UK. They also manage to do it without odd bonnets or formula 1 ducting in the engine bay. There are also plenty of other square shaped trucks that are lifted or lowered that run even bigger horse power without issues.
You have had the same issue with both engines and changed everything except the rad. That only leaves one item in my eyes.
If you are so close to curing the issue by moving or modifying the bonnet you will just do something else. Drive faster, fill the truck with all the kids, manage to find the biggest and longest hill or tow a trailer and you will be calling the AA again.
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Here's an idea...... :icon_biggrin:
FSJ hoods are held on by the hinge/spring mech on the inside....... 4 bolts to hold hood onto the mechanism?.
I'm guessing here FSJ Birtys advise :icon_twisted:
Take one of those bolts out and get 4 tomorrow that are 30mm longer.......then I have got 4 stainless circular 30mm spacers that were seat risers that are looking for a home and are sitting idly on my workbench.
There you go instant 30mm air escape gap at rear of hood that you can do the motorway test on......
Shout if of interest..... :icon_super:
Just a shame there on studs! But get the stud out and replace with a longer bolt...
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And the 360 overheated because the rad was just a big block of mud with water running through it. This problem I think is different.
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I have contacted some US sellers of fancy rads to see if they will ship - waiting in answers
I have done what feels like everything else so in the long run its not gonna do any harm ........
The original rad was new by the PO but who knows whether he got mugged
I'm figuring next wallet pillaging may as well involve throwing the kitchen sink at it :011:
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Don't forget the 'Pirate sourced formula' of cubic inches to square inches of rad.......
I know we've done this before but just in case :icon_twisted:
a 401 engine needs 401 + square inches of rad..... And that is just the element not including the tanks top and bottom or preferably left and right if it's a cross flow....... And ally cools better than
Old school brass......
And then if you can get multicore thickness then even better........ And so the mystical cooling mantra goes on and on.......
I am sure we.....(you) will get there in the end......... :icon_super:
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Have you removed the rad, filled it totally with water, emptied that water into a bucket measuring device, then dimensioned the rad to see if your getting roughly its water capacity into it, also if your rad is approximately the right size have you thought about getting it re-corred ?? maybe worth going to your local rad repair shop for advice with it.
Can you post a pic or pics of your engine bay which shows the rad position ??
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Don't forget the 'Pirate sourced formula' of cubic inches to square inches of rad.......
I know we've done this before but just in case :icon_twisted:
a 401 engine needs 401 + square inches of rad..... And that is just the element not including the tanks top and bottom or preferably left and right if it's a cross flow....... And ally cools better than
Old school brass......
And then if you can get multicore thickness then even better........ And so the mystical cooling mantra goes on and on.......
I am sure we.....(you) will get there in the end......... :icon_super:
So why do the yanks fit a standard 2 core stock rad the same as a 4.2 six?
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:iagree:
in my fsj days i found and swapped the same rad regardless of engine
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Sounds daft but are the fans turning in the right direction,
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Right, decision made - its heading back up north to Jim and not allowed back to the glamorous south until its learnt to behave itself :icon_super:
Only good bit of tyres being nicked was finding out that there is a helluva lot of love for the bastard thing - landy owners etc in kent telling me they drive past my house just to look at etc, its more famous than i realised :003: and even local non 4x4 doods from my estate knocking on my door to give condolences etc as its such a 'beautiful beast' etc :greggmo: so that has given me a kick up the arse to get it sorted once and for all ( :hysterical: )
Silver linings doods, silver linings
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Credit card at the ready then!
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Well my lotto win is just around the corner so fuck debt :003:
Chief or money in the bank - no brainer :icon_super:
Watched my dad live a v frugal life (& inflict it on me) so he could have a comfortable retirement and tbe poor old sod is wealthy but also to ill to do fuck all worthwhile. Im getting to that age where i hear bout people i know of my age gettin cancer and heart attacks etc so im following the plan of spend it while ya got it coz ya could be dead next week!!!
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The mystery of alternator belts disappearing has bern solved ........... by me :icon_super:
Rogue jubilee clip badly placed amd was cutting thru the belt.
So new belts fitted and transporter booked - new tyres not going on until the night b4 tho :011:
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Mechanic of the year goes to........... Bullfrog :icon_pray: :icon_pray:
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:stupid:
:smiley-whacky084:
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Only took me 3 shredded belts and trip home with the AA to find out why :lol_hitting:
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Ade,
Trans cooler has sorted my issues, and I have similar drivetrain to you....
Fluid goes through the in rad cooler first, then to the new one in front of the rad and then back to the th400, runs cool now.
Just trying to help
PJ
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cheers buddy, appreciate that - and damn good news for you
fuck I hope it fixes mine :eusa_pray:
I will inform Mr Sunderland when I see him on Saturday :greggmo:
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If I was you, ,given the size of the vehicle and your enthusiastic driving style (!) I'd use an engine driven fan with shroud, which will always give the most airflow, with a big trans cooler in front of the rad, the B and M one I got is nice as it bypasses when the trans is cool so won't over cool the th400, came with all the right fittings too, even i could fit it in a couple of hours..
Good Luck
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Old thread now but for all you "temperature sensor should be in the top hose not bottom hose" back seat mechanics, i think we all owe Mr Sunderland an apology........
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Heat rises !! The Mafia has it on the top hose.
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Its not exactly an old thread as the beast still lusts after heat and so the thread will need an update soon enough but good to know its in safe hands :greggmo:
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and although I never said it at the time I trawled the services of quite a few 'mechanics/garages' in the southern half of the country (was trying to avoid the transportation costs up to Jim) to see if they wanted to fault find the overheating on the Molotov and all said nope, not one was interested in any shape or form, despite them all coming from recommendations, however when I rang Jim and asked ... 'I dont suppose you would be interested in .....?' he replied yes without a milliseconds hesitation :greggmo: responses like that go a long way in my book - so transport costs in the future will just be factored in regardless
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Heat rises !! The Mafia has it on the top hose.
Radiator cooling development is always done with the coolant temperature referenced from the top hose, this then combined with a measurement of the bottom hose allows engineers to work out the efficiency of the radiator. If a temperature is taken from the main block then a correction factor has to be used by the coolant control module or the temperature for the viscous fan requires changing to suit.
doesn't matter where you control sensor is, as long as it switches on the cooling fan for a inlet temperature of circa 90 to 95 degC (or lower if required)
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Old thread now but for all you "temperature sensor should be in the top hose not bottom hose" back seat mechanics, i think we all owe Mr Sunderland an apology........
Are you some sort of kiss ass? even if he is right you don't tell him :098:
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Gents,
I know its tant amount to swearing on here but I used to own a rangerover P38 4.2 V8, damn thing used to do just this on me quite regularly. I found in the end that the coolant was aerating at high revs, not sure of the technicalities of why. Quite possible it was something to do with the spur off for the LPG heater, not sure but I changed the coolant for around 60% glysol and she was fine from then on.
Just a thought.
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Cheers mate, will add it to the list
Had gone 50/50 but only as far as that
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So you are saying Bulldogs Jeep is a giant one of these :icon_eek:
(http://static.au.groupon-content.net/50/98/1312856879850.jpg)
Oh hang on!, cant be, it says Earth friendly :003:
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keep telling you BD you need a flow restricter your plump is causing cavitation and high sustained revs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation
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So you are saying Bulldogs Jeep is a giant one of these :icon_eek:
(http://static.au.groupon-content.net/50/98/1312856879850.jpg)
Oh hang on!, cant be, it says Earth friendly :003:
No I don't believe he is! And what's not earth friendly about the mighty 401? do you believe everything the eco bodds tell you?
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True, Bulldogs appears to be steam powered judging by how much water it consumes!!
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shame there arn't any cheap flow meters on the market to confirm this, could try a simple pressure gauge just on the outlet of the pump, normal driving should read a stable(ish) pressure and as the temperature increases along with BD right foot if cavitation occurs around the pump impeller then the pressure should drop due to the increase in air.
Not saying this is your answer but maybe worth considering
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/water-pumps/davies-craig-ewp115-water-pump-digital-controller-combo
i ran a smaller setup on my race bike with no issues, but the bike had full flow system and pump removed and a rerouted dual rad setup, wish now i kept it after i sold the bike
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Electric water pump???? Seen some big blocks in a Jeep with this as an answer :icon_super:
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i went through two water pumps on the cherokee due to cavitation literally destroying the vanes on the pump. these snail pumps are cavitation free so might be a solution (might be not)
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Electric water pump???? Seen some big blocks in a Jeep with this as an answer :icon_super:
I've seen the same thing fitted to a Ford 351cu in V8...was being used in a early model LWB Landcruiser in central OZ. I never saw it being put to the test, but the guy driving it said it worked fine. The plumbing and wiring looked a bit of a mish mash to my untrained eye.
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So feedback from Mr Sunderland is some v corroded heads :icon_super:
V fixable as the spare 401 has minty original heads so a quick skim just to make sure and we are back in business :icon_super:
Gearbox rad fitted for belt & braces
A PITA it happened but hopefully easily fixed and not credit card maxing
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Awesome
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Corroded to the point of being porous or just full o' crap?
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First one
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i see'd them when i was up there
and even me as the tech wizard could tell ...
ohh mrs not so good
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had I known you were going ya could have taken a t-shirt I had kipped in and left it in the Chief so it dont forget me
and fair play mate - driving all the way back in the TJ :icon_super:
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just wait until its your turn and you drive the chief home :icon_super:
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Just make sure Bulldog Recovery Team is on stand-by :icon_eek:
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Run for the hills!
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should have asked for a photo to show the corroded and blocked cooling paths around the heads or lack of them
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Big day 2mrw :icon_super:
Rail trip with Stan of 5hrs to the dark satanic mills manor of the KY crew & Sunderland 4x4 to pick up the Molotov, which not only no longer overheats, but also has the carb upsized from 670 to 750cfm as the old carb was fubarred with non opening secondarys - I am reliably informed it is now a wheel spinning & double the accelaration monster
Then the joy of a rock n roll 250 mile road trip home, broken up only by a cuppa & real food courtesy of Suger Witch in the badlands where Bubba resides
THE AA WILL NOT BE INVOLVED AT ANY FRICKIN POINT!!!!!!
Progress report and gloating will follow 2mrw :003:
Ps. my WWII fire engine air raid warning siren is now attached to the roof - you may hear me passing through the country :rotflmao:
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Kept that quiet didnt ya! at least you cant bring much junk if you are on a train i suppose :icon_winkle:
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Stan is a big lad ........ can carry shit like a mule so clear up all that cable n plugs n shit so there some space for me :icon_winkle:
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Scrambler has vacated the premises so there is a little bit of room if you want to bring something good this time :003:
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gettin it sprayed at last?
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Another 3 litres of paint has been dropped off today so maybe some progress soon :100:
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Entered Doncaster and predctably the sun has fooked off behind rain clouds :011:8
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And where in the world is Bulldog?
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21:47 and no reply so he's most likely on the back of a recovery truck heading home
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21:47 and no reply so he's most likely on the back of a recovery truck heading home
:hysterical:
I was thinkin the same thing, then remembered he stopped at Kev's for a brew so I would assume he's still burning fuel for britain on the M40 / M25 :003:
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Home :icon_super:
Ended up closer to 300 miles with detours BUT NO TEMP PROBLEMS :ace:
Knackered tho so full report 2mrw - I need some :a012:
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:icon_super:
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Good work Ade and James Sunderland of course
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Indeed - well done Jim (anyone who doesn't know Jim - Sunderland 4x4 gets my recommendation) :greggmo:
So main thing is that my WW2 Fire Truck air raid warning siren is now bolted on to the roof :003: and coupled with the one under the bonnet means I can now be heard coming from some way off
Replacement heads, new carb, and additional transmission rad seem to have solved the overheating probs - in the rain for 150 miles it barely moved off its starting point, and even at a steady 75 for 20 odd miles it never got past dead centre - soon as I dropped to 60 the temp dropped back under centre.
The trans rad (placed in front of engine rad) has made a phenomenal difference to the heat in the cab - the tunnel now is barely warm whereas it used to be like a log burner.
My only question now is whether that it feels like its being held back on acceleration when floored, almost like the handbrake is partly on, and seems to change gears early when I boot it. It may be that I'm too used to the SRT8 but it doesn't seem to bark back at me now.
Regardless, happy days :icon_super: it doesnt overheat :icon_super: and can be driven once more :icon_super:
Was good to see J33ky as well - managed to blag a little Husqvarna 50cc crosser for the boys from him :greggmo: and watching him stack it on wet smooth concrete while he was demonstrating its pulling power was a special highlight :rotflmao: apologies for no video of this but I had no idea he was going to morph into a stunt man :003:
Some lovely trucks up at Sunderland 4x4 as well - would be a nice little sideline Jim if you charged admission and gave a guided tour :icon_winkle:
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I was thinkin the same thing, then remembered he stopped at Kev's for a brew so I would assume he's still burning fuel for britain on the M40 / M25 :003:
rough calculations say approx 15mpg, which aint to shabby at all, but it was 99% motorway and 90% steady 55 - 65mph
and not only a brew but roast chicken rolls and fluffy little cakes as well courtesy of Snickers :dance:
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Well done Jim.....
How many years have you been chasing the answer to this prob Ade :icon_twisted:
At least 3 ???
I am sure the gearbox is doing what it should you're just used to something else as you say....
But just to get you in the mood there are loads of things that you can do to a TH400 to firm up the shifts......reverse shift pattern...... Manual valve block...... Different torque converter to shift harder later.......
Ooooooh the ways one can offload moolar ...... :hysterical:
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ever since I owned it so closer to 6 yrs :lol_hitting:
altho yeah was the IOW greenlaning trip when it started to become undrivable over distances - talking to Bubba last night tho and he was sayin that Tank had overheating problems with this engine in his CJ7 before Bubba had the truck (he never drove it as needed an engine rebuild) so all in all about 12 yrs :icon_eek:
Cheers for all the ideas Jez :011: Im guessing I wil return to this in the future :jpshakehead: (was driving back wondering about how tricky fitting an SRT8 style hemi would be :97: )
Will be focusing on project CJ7 for the time being - especially as Jim has given the nod that its 401 donor engine has a healthy future :icon_super:
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glad you got if sorted. :icon_super: :icon_super:
nothing worse than a sick truck you can't use
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Get a vid of that siren going off please!!! I still remember collecting it and "testing" it at home, never seen so many curtains twitch at once :hysterical:
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Will do mate, altho maybe during daylight hours :003:
My drive tonight is lookin pretty damn sexy :greggmo:
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Jim Sunderland rocks :strum:
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That's a damn good looking driveway. I even quite like the Dulvo :003:
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Jim Sunderland rocks :strum:
Dont start with that. The hobbit already has a big head..we dont want it getting any bigger.