Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: Warwick Wendy on November 05, 2009, 01:00:28 PM
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Hi Guys,
Hope everyone is well and enjoying Guy Fawkes day!
I have a real dilemma!! Had a problem with my jeep Wrangler 96 TJ a while ago with intermittent starting, the immobiliser light would stay on and the car wouldn't start, this would happen for a while, then I'd go try it again about an hour later and it would start ok. Now me being a panicker! thought I can't be doing with this happening and risk being stranded when out so I decided to upgrade the immobiliser. The guy came out, took off the old one and replaced it with a brand new Viper. Only problem is as soon as he took off the original one the car wouldn't start at all. He continued to fit the new one thinking this would fix it. It didn't!! Malens came out and that guy took 2 hours searching over the car looking for the problem...the car starts for about 3 seconds and cuts out again. So off my Jeep went to the Jeep dealer in Coventry on Friday and has been there ever since. They say they can't figure out what's wrong with it and they can't do a full diagnostic check until the car is running. At a £100 per hour I need this sorted and quick.
My last hope is that any of you may offer an idea of what the problem may be...........I'm flumaxed!!!!
Is it an ECU problem and if so how can they tell? because when asked if it could be that he said I wouldn't like to say. aaagghh!!!!!!!!!
p.s. The guy who came out to fix the new immobiliser said the original one wasn't a stock one but fitted after by Chrysler, but I have no clue what to think now.
Really would appreciate any input guys???
Thanks in advance....Wendy x :010:
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Wendy - sadly you're stuffed....the bod who removed/attempted to remove the imobiliser has gone about it the wrong way.
As I see it your only option from this point it to get a PCM from America they don't have the imobiliser in the system.
I could be wrong but I have lived through such a problem before.
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Ah; reading the title I thought it was easy & I had the answer for this!
But reading the info about immobiliser this has thrown me & can only offer the following:
FYI My TJ suffered the prob where it would start & instantly die. The verdict was the PCM/brain was loosing its memory: the cause was the battery was on its way out. To fix it you had to jump on the accelerator pedal as it started up; holding the engine at a high rpm allowed it to find its memory again & then all was good (long term a replacement battery solved it).
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I've had a similar problem with my TJ when I first had it. It would start and only run for a couple of seconds and then die. I think the air-bag and seatbelt warning light used to stay on too. IIRC, I used to press the activate button on the fob and or wait until the alarm just re-activated it-self and then pressed the deactivate button again and nine times out of ten it would work properly. After a short while the problem disappeared and it never returned. I too had a new vehicle battery fitted not long after the problems appeared, but I replaced the battery because I accidentally damaged the case – the old one seemed to be working okay albeit it was nine years old.
I'd guess your alarm fitter has buggered up your standard installation well and truly. I've never heard of anyone successfully removing a Chrysler immobiliser from a TJ let alone replacing it with a non-standard one, other than doing what IOM says!
I presume your fitter has refitted the standard Chrysler unit and that is what your local dealer is looking at and not the new one?
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Thanks for all the replies...
No the guy left the new one fitted and the Jeep dealers have disconnected that one too. So at the mo it's without any. I too had a new battery fitted about a year ago.
But we may.....she says lightly!..... have a breakthrough...
Got in touch with a guy in Cannock who does ECU remapping?!?! make sense to anyone?
told him all the problems I've been having and he reckons he can take off the code from my ECU and so it will work without the original immobiliser, he said you won't get the original to work now its been messed with anyway. He seemed to understand everything that had happened and has done it with many ECU's.
Watch this space, will be taking it to him tomorrow..........For £150 let's hope it does the trick!
EEEEK!!! Miss my beast!!!
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not realy sure he can do that he would have to down load the the ecu and then isolate the rite thing i dunno how you would know what to look for
and then re loade the ecu if it were that simple the dealers would be doing it too
i think ebay usa for a 4.0 pcm [ecu] buy it fit it and drive away
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This sounds like the shit I went though with my ZG a year ago...make sure the battery is 100% OK
Don't put up with brain dead shithead so called specialists saying they know the solution....or Jeep dealers who don't either
Dumb ass question are your immobiliser batteries fresh and OK??
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not realy sure he can do that he would have to down load the the ecu and then isolate the rite thing i dunno how you would know what to look for
and then re loade the ecu if it were that simple the dealers would be doing it too
i think ebay usa for a 4.0 pcm [ecu] buy it fit it and drive away
This guy tomorrow is the last move before ordering one from the States.
To be fair when I asked the guy at the dealers if it could be the ECU, He said "how do we know, do you know anyone who tests them!?!?!" WTF!!!
So i'm afraid the guys at Coventry don't know their asses from their elbows!! :icon_winkle:
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This sounds like the shit I went though with my ZG a year ago...make sure the battery is 100% OK
Don't put up with brain dead shithead so called specialists saying they know the solution....or Jeep dealers who don't either
Dumb ass question are your immobiliser batteries fresh and OK??
The battery was new about a year ago, cos the recovery guys said the other one was knackered after having to jump start it one day.
At the moment it's too late to check the old immobiliser batteries as it's already been removed from the jeep
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Maybe try Elloitt at EDM ...northampton way???
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The part ot the immobiliser behind the dash (the bit the moron removed) was fitted on arrival in the UK by Chrysler Jeep Imports in order to comply with UK regulations. It acts as receiver for the remote fobs and cuts the starter circuit. Immobilisation of the engine, on the other hand, is achieved by using the anti-theft program encrtypted in the PCM. Once this is enabled, it will shut the engine down if it does not receive the correct coded run signal from the immobiliser module via the CCD bus. When manufactured, the anti-theft function is disabled and is only activated if an immobiliser is fitted. Once activated, it cannot, however be reversed, at least using the equipment and information provided to the dealer network. It may be possible for a specialist with the right equipment and knowledge to get round it.
By the way, I hope you didn't pay the immobiliser twat.
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OK guys! Well you were right....The guy in Cannock said its a hybrid and cant be opened, whatever that means!
So my only option is to get one from the States.......Now me being a girl! (Hair is dyed blonde) eeek!! but am a natural red head (rusty brain) means I need you guys to point me in the right direction either on ebay or wherever to get the correct ECU. Its for a 96 TJ Wrangler, I do have a part number off mine but won't it be different out there?
Sorry to keep needing your help :icon_sad:
Thanks
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(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autocomputerexchange.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2F96up%2520Jeep%2520Cherokee%2520-%2520Wrangler.JPG&hash=48e1592f9d82c4813a8090e9971f504ec04cff28)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/97-98-99-00-JEEP-WRANGLER-Engine-Computer-ECM-PCM-ECU_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27aab5c9dfQQitemZ170367764959QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/97-98-99-00-JEEP-WRANGLER-Engine-Computer-ECM-PCM-ECU_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27aab5c9dfQQitemZ170367764959QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
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(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autocomputerexchange.com%2Febay%2Fstorefront.JPG&hash=c492af70de9809a0821d767b7628102fa5c6ec74)
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silly question but would not a xj one work on it? or similar year?
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Only a 1996 XJ 4.0 one might do the trick. Pre '96 have the old single plug unit, and the '97 onwards have SKIS so will be useless.
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Why don't you just get the original immobiliser reinstated?
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then i may have one you can use but i will need it back at some point if she is desperate,
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hmmmm!! I was having the problem with the intermittent starting before I took the immobiliser off so best I change all really, Didn't think the old one would work if re fitted.
Am looking into how fast I can get one from the States at the mo, but the offer of one to use in the meantime may be a fab idea if it works
thanks
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Does anyone have any other numbers for the States to get a new ESU? As I seem to be having a nightmare with the Auto Computer Exchange, soooo slow and never calling back when they say they're going to.
As I'm sure you can understand I need this fixing asap as it's my only form of transport
(excluding my motorbike and I'm not F****** riding in this bloody weather LOL)
cheers x
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W it's possible I could help you - I have here an American PCM that I would exchange with you till your replacement arrives, this I will do free of charge to help you.
I suggest that you send me your address and cover the cost of IOM>UK post, then order your PCM from America and send mine back to me when your American PCM arrives.
Let me know?
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Damn decent of you Mr H :greggmo:
Wendy, bite his bloody hand off sharpish :003:
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Don't worry Gaz!!! I bit his arm off as well as his hand within 2 minutes lol
I just cannot not believe the people on this site!!!!!!!!!
YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!!! :icon_eek:
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Damn decent of you Mr H :greggmo:
:imwitstupid: no denyin it, he is a consistent shiny one!
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yup a good all round chap indeed
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awwww!
warm and fuzzly, good luck Wendy
:icon_winkle:
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Any update yet, do we have a runner ?
Fingers crossed :003:
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Have ordered the one from the States and IOM is sending me one out today to borrow (I hope) lol
x
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Sadly not - I was in the UK yesterday and time restraint stopped me today but in the morning it will be winging it's way for sure.
Here is the little beauty.....
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi106.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm246%2Fmanxmafia%2Fw1-1.jpg&hash=4430d204dac766ccdef9882ea965a48bc74aa087)
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aaaaaaaaaaaw!! it's beautiful!!! thanku lol x
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Special tag# ZV981312734GB
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It's here!! It's here!! (well at the post office, going to collect in a minute)
Will then be taking it along to the Jeep ££ Dealer to plug n go!! (oh I so hope so)
Thanku Peter x x x x x
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Good news from accross the county border I hope ?
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Ok guys.......me again :icon_rolleyes:
Update is, the Jeep dealer has fitted IOM's ECU but nothing happening, not even cranking over for 3 seconds-they say it needs to have the VIN number programmed into the ECU for it to work, but IOM assures me it does not.
They have also tried with the original ECU and now that too gives nothing not even the 3 seconds it gave before, I've asked is it a flat battery issue, they have assured me it is not.
Any ideas guys, cos I can to get Malons to pick the jeep up and delivery it to somewhere else with more knowledge on this.
3 weeks and counting.........a very sad girl
thanks x
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I can confirm Waggers and I fitted the USA PCM/ECU on two wranglers (it takes only minutes) and both started with no need to use the key fob.
If your Jeep dealer reprogrames the PCM it becomes usless to me - not sure what to say at this point I guess you in the hands of the Jeep dealer.
My recourse will be to persue the poeple who put you in this situation, but that does not help you right now!!!!
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Don't worry I won't let them re programme it to mine, my only hope is that when the USA one arrives it will work
Can't really blame the guy who came out to re-fit me a new immobilizer as neither of us knew it would bugger up the whole car
x
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W if the PCM I sent you does not work the fault is not with the PCM - the one you have requested from America will have the same result.
Have you/they checked the clutch switch? I believe the wire is yellow!!!
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Have you changed the batterys in the key fob??? They may have drained
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Will pass that on to them IOM
Bishops.....it no longer has the immobiliser on it at all, hense needing to get the USA ECU
What I dont get is that the jeep was starting for 3 seconds to start with and now it isn't, doesn't that spell somethings drained?
x
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it sounds more like you have lost a live feed to something in the starting side of the engine, so you need a decent electrician to go thru it and find out where it is missing from.
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Any news on this and my loan PCM?
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Hi guys,
Jeep still not back after almost a month in the Jeep dealers, but thought if I bring you all up to date on the progress maybe it might trigger some ideas on what to try next:
1 Battery flat so jump started
2 Later that week car would start for 3 seconds then cut out, after about half an hour it would start again
3 Recommended that battery is changed so did so
4 Same fault kept occuring
5 This would happen about once a week
6 The jeep did start quicker once when the battery was disconnected then reconnected after 2 mins
7 Suspected immobiliser fault, stock immobiliser disconnected and removed and new viper immobiliser fitted
8 While attempting to start the jeep after new immobiliser installed it would run for 3 seconds then cut out
9 Break down called to take to local dealer
10 Recommended that all immobilsers disconnected and purchase USA ecu which doesn't need immobilser fitted
11 This has arrived plugged in same fault occuring
12 Jeep dealer has emailed Jeep head office and "Main" (the UK immobiliser manufacturer) and both have said this vehicle will not start without an immobiliser fitted.
So how come other Jeeps have started when using a USA ECU as you guys say without immobilisers and this one won't?
Next move is to re-fit the stock immobiliser and old ECU to see if the jeep starts but before that can happen the Jeep dealer needs to know how to re-wire the loom as it has been cut to disconnect...anyone have a diagram I can have please?
if this doesn't work it's going to the knackers yard :-(....extreme!!! but I have no other ideas, tell me you guys do???
Thanks Wendy x
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Have sent you a PM Pete x
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Diagram will not help you all the wires for the immobiliser are black, Jeep dealer is no use either you are just propping up is workshop hours with no progress!!!
I feel for you - really I do.
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Thanks Peter,
Update is.......
Have been to Jeep dealer...picked up the wiring loom for the immobiliser, had the diagram sent from the immobiliser company and reconnected the wires that were cut.
Tomorrow morning will take it back, get them to refit the stock immobiliser with the new ECU and pray to God it works (cross all your fingers for me guys!!)
(who needs Coronation Street when you have me bringing you all this drama???)
If anyone needs the diagram on the wiring please let me know and I will gladly forward it
x
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Are you saying the problem now is that it won't crank?
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Last week it wouldn't crank over at all, at the moment it's back to 3 seconds...........
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can it be somthing real simple
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Up for suggestions Bubba!??
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If the May and Schofield immobiliser is disconnected the Jeep won't crank unless you rejoin the wiring in the clutch/starter interlock switch that the immobiliser interrupts. If you trace the wires from the clutch switch you will find a pair of black wires spliced into the harness. Cut them out and reinstate the original wires and the Jeep should always crank when you turn the key (with the clutch depressed) regardless of whether the immobiliser is plugged in or which PCM you have fitted.
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If the May and Shofield immobiliser is disconnected the Jeep won't crank unless you rejoin the wiring in the clutch/starter interlock switch that the immobiliser interrupts. If you trace the wires from the clutch switch you will find a pair of black wires spliced into the harness. Cut them out and reinstate the original wires and the Jeep should always crank when you turn the key (with the clutch depressed) regardless of whether the immobiliser is plugged in or which PCM you have fitted.
W if the PCM I sent you does not work the fault is not with the PCM - the one you have requested from America will have the same result.
Have you/they checked the clutch switch? I believe the wire is yellow!!!
This is I suspected...
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Sounds like pretty much what is going to happen tomorrow Mike, except the jeep is Auto
x
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If they had any sense they could've shorted the starter relay to try it.
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Reading this i would of thought that even if the general public aren't allowed a circuit drawing for the immobiliser, the dealers would have access to one so they could fault find and in this case remove all the immobiliser crap or is it just a jeep dealer thing?
Could it be possible that the ecu/fuel pump has no ignition feed, because it sounds to me like its getting a signal from the starter position on the ignition to say its cranking over but then once its fired its losing that feed?.
If the case is that the car is not cranking over at all i would be tempted to run a temporary cable from the battery to the starter motors solenoid (via a switch which would be preferably inside so you can sit on the brake and so that you dont get mown down when you've accidently left it in drive) just to eliminate that its not a starter motor problem as well as an immobiliser one.
other than that its probably a case of getting hold of the wiring diagrams for the car and going through all the starter bits systematically to try and remove all the immobiliser parts but you would need someone who knows what they are doing which you dont seem to have much luck in finding at the moment.
Good luck in getting it sorted.Dave
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Dont know if this helps but on the great lakes site on the 97 xj workhop manual there is a diagram for the secrity system
dont know how close that is to your motor but it might help
just do a search under immobilizer
http://www.birtydastards.com/frm/index.php?topic=6605.0 (http://www.birtydastards.com/frm/index.php?topic=6605.0)
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OK todays update........Are you all sitting comfortably?.......then I will begin.......
The Jeep is ready to be picked up!!!!!
Took the loom back to them re-wired, they fitted it all back together, re-programmed the immobiliser to the USA pcm and VOILA!!!! But still need to press unlock on the key-fob for it to start so it hasn't bypassed it.
Just hope it behaves itself from now on, cos if I have to return it they will lock the gates beofre I get there!! lol
Going in the morning to collect, I'm sooo excited! It's like Christmas....my big beautiful boy will be home!!!!
Thanks for all your help during this process, sorry if I've been a pain!....It really has helped having you all there....especially you Peter
x
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:icon_redface:
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result Wendy :icon_super:
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Result...
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Fingers crossed for you, moral is I suppose, dont feck with imobilisers :003:
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Na moral is cars and computers don't mix,
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W - it's back and still works!!!!! Bea (my staffie) has a new toy and appreciates it - cheers.