Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: wildrover on January 02, 2010, 10:59:09 AM
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Hallo peeps....happy new year to all of you...hope its a good one for you...
Two days ago i went out to start my 1997 2.5 diesal mk2 cherokee , and it wasn,t having any of it...! I thought the problem might be a flat battery , as i had not used it for a day or two , and had accidentally left my rechargable torch plugged into the power outlet on the instrument panel... The previous night it had been a bit cold round these parts , i am talking here about Polish cold , like minus 25 centigrade , so the flat battery seemed a likely suspect...
The next morning i put the fully charged battery back into the Jeep , but no sign of it wanting to turn over , let alone fire up...There was a slight noise from under the bonnet to suggest the starter motor might be trying to do something , but it certainly wasn,t spinning....
It was too dam cold to go crawling about under the dam thing , so i thought i might turn to the Jeepy expert on this forum for some advice before freezing my ass off under the beast...
Prior to the problem the Jeep was starting just fine , and there was no sign of any problem when i parked it up in my garage... I don,t pretend to be a car mechanic , but i do have some spannering experiance with motorcycles , and i am thinking this is a starter motor solenoid problem , unless anyone has any better ideas... Could it be a wire off someplace , has something died due to the cold..?
Any advice would be very much appreciated.... Out here we got lots of snow , and the roads are not gritted , so i kinda depend on the Jeep to get around.. My Harley is not very good on snow and ice...and i am not very good on a bike in these silly tempretures... happy 2010
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I would say the something is bloody frozen, ie condesation in the starter motor
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Now thats a possibility....i will check that out....perhaps i should have done what the Russians do to start the car in cold weather....Walk down a Moscow street on a very cold morning and you can warm your hands on all the fires that are lit under the cars to get em fired up...strange , i have never seen one go up in flames , but i guess it must happen...
I shall try a more western method to warm the starter , maybe a blowlamp or something...?
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might be the starter relay freezing at that temperature. warm it up and see what happens. put a cover over it or heat it up with the missuses hair drier
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might be the starter relay freezing at that temperature. warm it up and see what happens. put a cover over it or heat it up with the missuses hair drier
Thats a good idea , i was thinking how i could warm things up a bit without setting the Jeep on fire....I just hope all my extension leads are long enough to reach from the house to the garage..?
It has got a bit warmer thankfully , its now up to minus 4 , i might sit in the garden with a cold beer...!
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Electric paint stripper is the most effective way I know to short of a propane torch :icon_eek:
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Electric paint stripper is the most effective way I know to short of a propane torch :icon_eek:
Even better....i will dig that out and toast some sense into it...Thank god there is only another 80 days of this weather... , not so long if you say it quickly...?
Can you get thermal undies for a Jeep cherokee...?
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I have just been out to have a poke at the beast...i cant even see the dam starter motor and solenoid..! There was a bit of a blizzard blowing , and it was freezing so i did not spend long looking....Give me a clue somebody , is the starter on the right hand side of the engine , or the left...?
There ain,t much room in the engine bay is there , not like my old Landrover , you could open the bonnet and walk around the engine..!
I am guessing you get to the starter motor from underneath , no sign of it looking from the top... maybe its fallen off , that might acount for the non starting i suppose... bah humbug...!
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offside underneath the turbo, a bastard to get to :hysterical:
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under the turbo and over xhaust front pipe - you can just hit the bottom of it with a stick.
What about towing it to loosen it up??
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Now why did they go and hide it there...? I was begining to think it might have fallen off..! Its currently minus 22 here so sod it for now...
Now if i can get that old Russian army flame thrower working i might be able to thaw it out without leaving the house...?
I should have bought a farm in the south of Spain maybe..?
Thanks for all the advice chaps...i will let you know if i get it thawed out , don,t hold your breath , it might be around March..!
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under the turbo and over xhaust front pipe - you can just hit the bottom of it with a stick.
What about towing it to loosen it up??
That could be worth a try...thats if its the starter motor thats frozen up....i guess it wont help if its the solenoid thats entered the ice age...
I did contemplate pouring some boiling water over it , and then running it till it gets warm and dry...after that its figuring out how to stop it freezing up again...
The Jeep sits in an open fronted garage , so i guess its going to be a matter of making sure i run the engine up every day and not leave it standing for a few days which i think is what caused the problem... In the colder parts of Russia where it can get down to minus 45 they leave the car engines running all night as stopping it means its not never going to start again , but i can,t afford the fuel to do that.... :jpshakehead:
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lots of experience of the bastarding starter motor in the diesel cherokee , i`ve had it out 6 times so far, aaaaarghhh!! i is an arse of a job, engine mountings off and buggered knuckles, extentions and bendy bits from the socket set definately required!!
the problems i had were solenoid related!
are you getting any noises from the starter at all when you are turning the key?
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I am pretty sure the starter is not doing anything at all , and i suspect the solenoid is in a coma also....I get some kind of click when i turn on the ignition from under the bonnet , but turning it further to start the Jeep does nothing other than dim the radio light...The thing was working perfectly well before the sudden severe drop in tempreture here , so i can,t help but think there is a connection to that...
At the moment its minus 22 here , so i don,t feel inclined to go crawling about under the thing to try and thaw out whatever is frozen up...
Its a bit of an inconveniance not having the Jeep mobile , as i live on the edge of a Polish forest and need it to get to the shops etc , but keeping warm is the priority at the moment , i am just hoping there is a thaw soon....
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Hi, have you tried starting it with the headlights on? if you see the lights dim the starter is drawing current and jambed if not it could be your immobiliser, i had a similar problem lately after it had been stood for a few days and froze over it would click and the dash lights would dim slightly but not start i assumed the battery was down but did the same thing with a booster charger i was starting to think the starter was knackerd but it was ok when i parked it up! my jeep has a switch on the clutch pedal that stops it starting so i worked the switch with my hand waggled it around a bit and tried to start the engine fired up and ran a bit erratic till it warmed up then i noticed the instrument cluster not working!! but that's another story. my jeep is a 2.5 petrol but may help you :icon_winkle:
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Having also skinned my knuckles and contemplated using angle grinder when removing a Td starter motor I would make doubley sure that the battery is fully charged - it took a good 24hrs for my weedy charger to fully charge a 2.5td Daihatsu battery and given your chiily temps even more important. Poor earth lead from engine and general connections from battery to starter. I'm sure you have checked all this but more than once my mechanical genius has been thrown by coincidence e.g it was all right last time I used it therefore it must be something very complicated that requires my mechanical genius :005: and lots of dismantling - ....what do you mean the fuse has fallen out!
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Hit it with a hammer and try again.
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I have had my battery on charge a couple of days now , so it should be well charged up...I am just waiting now for a break in the weather to go and poke it again...I am hoping a friend who is an auto electrician can come over and check everything to eliminate any possible electrical problems , and then its just a matter of somehow thawing out the solenoid and starter....Having it hidden under the turbo where i can,t get at it is not going to make it easy....Once i have thawed it out , and got it running i then have to figure out how to prevent it having the same problem again....
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-22 is a killer for batteries and electrics so dont get too disheartened just yet. to save the battery wrap some cardboard around it and a towel over that to insulate it. you'd be amazed what that does. if you get a clicking that might be the starter solenoid trying to work. but if you have some moisture inside that has frozen then you wont get a connection. what you might be able to do is put some insulation around the starter temporarily while you wait for the outside temp to rise. this should stop it being directly affected by cold winds.
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LATEST UPDATE..Today its a warm minus 4 , i installed the battery which has been on charge for 24 hours , and is in good condition...and tried again...Nothing happening under the bonnet at all , no sound of the solenoid even trying to do anything...I turned on one of the internal lights , and the headlights , the only thing that dimmed when trying to start it was the light iluminating the radio..I guess this suggests that there is not any voltage getting to the starter and solenoid...? I am definatly not an expert on electrical matters , so can anyone point me at whatever electrical wotsit is likely to have melted...?
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Hi, sounds like electrical prob, just had a look at manual it says for none starting check 30 amp fuse pdc, clutch pedal switch, starter relay pdc, starter case ground, this is on the diesel section of the manual. pdc is the fuse box in the engine bay. good luck and put your long johns on before you venture out!! .......cya
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Just an extra thought,do you know for definate the battery is good,i.e holding the charge?I had recent trouble with my BMW.One day start perfect as had done for last 12 months then next,nothing at all and had to jump start it,next day same.Turned out battery was toast,wouldnt hold a charge and battery was only 18 months old.Have you a friend with a spare or another battery yourself,just to try,even if just to rule it out of the equation
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Yeah , i am sure the battery is good , and i have tried it with another battery that is good....I checked both with a voltmeter before putting em in the Jeep....Even if the battery was a bit iffy you would think it at least make the solenoid do something....
When i put on the internal lights they are bright enough , as are the headlights , and neither go dim when i am trying to start the beast...I am sure i have 12 volts there , but that 12 volts is not turning the starter motor or operating the solenoid...
I have checked all the relevant fuses , and taken out the starter relay and cleaned the contacts , but i have no idea if the relay is working or not....Looks like its going to stay dead untill an auto electrician can have a poke at it....
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Short the two large terminals in the starter relay socket together and see if the starter runs.
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Where would the starter relay socket be...? If its near the solenoid that could be tricky...I can,t even see the dam starter and solenoid , let alone poke it in some way....I may be able to get to it under the Jeep , but in these tempretures i just don,t feel inclined to crawl about under it....
I am running short of supplies here , so at some point i am going to have to do something to get it going....I will have starved or froze to death before spring comes...
Ah , i remember those distant day when i could just call up the AA....
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I'll go and take a pic :icon_winkle:
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this might help,
view of starter motor below turbo and relief valve (just) on left hand side of picture
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg9.imageshack.us%2Fimg9%2F3134%2F11032009894.jpg&hash=a30c61fdc3513d0c6f4431e64af89e0167c1c326)
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hope this works
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Starter relay is in the pdc in the engine bay (power dist rebution center) it will tell you on
the inside of the lid ..............
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Thanks guys , great pics....I can see the starter motor on your pic , but thats probably due to the fact you have removed most of the turbo...i am kinda hoping i won,t need to do this , and probably due to severe wishfull thinking i have convinced myself that the starter motor and solenoid are not getting any power , and the problem lies elsewhere...The fact that the lights do not dim at all when trying to start it makes me think there is no current drain to the solenoid or starter....
I have identified the starter relay in the fuse box already when i was checking all the fuses , i took it out and cleaned the contacts , but i don,t know how to test if its working or not... You say i can check the starter by shorting out the contacts of the relay , do you mean poking a wire into the holes that this relay plugs into..? and if so , which holes..? I don,t want to melt anything by poking the wrong hole ..!
i do have a multimeter thing for checking voltage and continuity , but i don,t pretend to know how to use it properly...any tips on how to check the relay is not fried...?
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Easy relay test....swap it for the horn relay and see if the horn still works.
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Great idea..i didn,t think of that...! Just supposing the relay turns out to be the problem....can i swap the relay for the horn over with the starter relay in order to get the beast running again . or are they different enough to be damaged...? I imagine the starter relay has to pull a lot more juice through it than the horn relay...
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They're the same.
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the turbo is fully intact just the exhaust manifold has been removed. the only picture i could find of where the starter is located. the solenoid is attatched to the starter with the relay and fuse in the big fuse box seen in the above picture. the relays are all the same in design and operation but some are a bit more robust. As Mike says just pull the horn relay and put that one in place (std 4 pin relay)
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The saga continues... I went out today , put a fully charged battery in the beast , tried the horn , yep , thats working fine , so i swapped the horn relay with the starter relay....nothing..! Not a sign of the solenoid or starter doing anything at all....,My Jeep is the 1997 mk2 model and does not have the doodah that means you need to depress the clutch pedal , leastways i have never had to do that since i bought the Jeep in early summer , but just in case it does have one that has suddenly begun working i tried it with the clutch depressed...still nothing...!
confused and clueless...!
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Hi, have a look at your clutch pedal theres a switch it's a round tube thing fastend to the back of the pedal arm you can work it back and forwards with your hand without moving the pedal, it sounds as if the immobiliser is on and blocking the starting, mine was the same as i posted before. check the wires are ok you can bypass this switch .......cya
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We're running out of ideas here :017: How about checking the ignition switch. I have had dodgy starting symptoms when the contacts in the ignition switch were not connecting properly (it was a Discovery!)
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Ok, I've been out pulled the starter relay on my jeep bridged it out with a 2 inch length of wire this cranks the engine over, as mike said, so if you have changed the relays over and still no joy you've just eliminated the relay not the circuit that turns the relay on off! looking at the diagrams there is a switch on the clutch on your jeep and this is part of the circuit that powers the relay!! so your next move is to bridge out the relay to see if it cranks over pin numbers to bridge out are 30 and 87 look on the bottom of the relay, not 87a, this will bypass the clutch switch! the fuel pump relay is next to the starter one so if you mix up you will hear the pump run have the ign on when you bridge the relay. good luck.......cya
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you are still getting the instrument cluster lighting up and the glow plug relay icon being lit (for a few seconds)
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Have you tried bridging the relay socket yet? This will eliminate any problem with the starter, solenoid or wiring after the relay.
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Latest news...I have bridged the contacts on the relay..30 and 87...nothing at all , not a peep out of anything...The instrument panel lights up as normal , the glow plug light comes on , and goes out after a few seconds as per normal....I have had a poke around the clutch pedal , can,t get in there to see much , but i did find a wire with a plug on the end thats not connected to anything...As i say , from the first day of owning the Jeep i have never had to depress the clutch to start it , so if my Jeep has this immobiliser connected to the clutch it has never worked , possibly due to being disconected or bypassed by a previous owner....I am a complete muppet when it comes to electrics , so shooting in the dark here...! Can anyone confirm that my model of Jeep has this clutch immobiliser..?
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the mk1 diesel i owned never had a clutch pedal sensor for imobilising the engine. this imobiliser is mainly for the american market and fitted to the petrol manual cars so their cars can't start when in gear.
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Hmm, i have the circuit diagram for your year 1997 2.5 diesel Cherokee bridging out the relay should crank the starter! the starter motor is hard wired direct to the battery , the solenoid on the starter is activated by the relay ,the relay hot side of the relay is fed by a 30 amp fuse in the pdc if you have a volt meter pull the relay and test pin 30 you should get 12v ign on 0v ign off , this side of the relay is direct to the solenoid, if it tests no power check the 30 amp fuse in pdc. the key and clutch lockout switch operate the coil side (switch) of the relay, if you get 12v when you test pin 30 you may have a bad earth to starter...hope this helps.......
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I didn,t think it had one...Well thats eliminated one possibility ..! I am sure its some small problem that an auto electrician would spot in an instant , i can,t believe its a major problem , but maybe thats wishfull thinking..? The Jeep was working perfectly well when i parked it up in the garage , and apart from the spell of cold weather , nothing has happened that could have caused a major meltdown...
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As i mentioned before i am a muppet when it comes to electrical matters...So....i stuck the plus probe on my test meter into the socket where the 30 pin goes , the minus probe i put to an earth contact..? am i doing it right...? Anyways...poking the the probes into all the contacts on the starter relay with the ignition on did not produce any sign of voltage..! All the fuses in the pdc are ok... shall i give up now...????
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Its a runner...hoooooray.....thanks for all your help...Right now i have to go out...but when i return i will reveal the sad thruth about my muppetry....-
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At last !!!!
Something nice & simple I hope :icon_super:
Go & get loads of supplies then come back & tell us all about it :icon_jook:
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Phew!!............. :003:
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The lesson i have learned today from my Jeep is....never assume anything....!
During the past few days , while checking all the usual stuff that a non auto electrician would poke at in desperation i checked the fuses , both the ones inside the Jeep , and the ones in the under bonnet pdc...It was cold , i could not feel my fingers , and i hadn,t brought my pliers to pull the fuses....Luckily the fuses had a pair of small contacts on the top which meant you could check them with a meter without needing to pull them out...The only fuse that did not have these contacts was one that is numbered 29 in my handbook , and is apparently the headlight switch fuse , so i ignored it....today i pulled out that fuse , more in desperation than anything else , and guess what..? It had blown..! I changed that fuse....bugger me the Jeep burst into life at the first try despite it being minus ten here....
So the handbook is telling lies...what is marked as the headlight switch fuse is obviously an ignition fuse....Typical is it not...the only fuse i did not check is the one that had blown , and turned out to be the one that sent my Jeep into a coma...
Many thanks to all you guys who tried to solve my problem . .i learned quite a bit about my Jeep electrics in the process....Maybe you have learned something from my muppetry..... never assume anything... thanks guys...
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:icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :greggmo:
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nice to hear your now sorted, TBH you must have learnt alot from this so now you have an idea of what and where to look next time
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:icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :icon_jook: :greggmo:
:imwitstupid: i think im as relieved as you are Mr W. Rover :003:
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Its great to have the Jeep running again , and i am quite impressed it fired up first turn of the key despite being minus 10 here , mind you , the battery had been on charge all night in a warm house...I live on a farm on the edge of a forest , so having transport is pretty important , and without a 4 x 4 i would not even get out of the yard in this weather...
Being out in the wilds is vey nice , but when you have a problem you have to pretty much sort it out on your own , a bit difficult when its a problem that is beyond your skills...Without this forum and its wise members i would have been pretty clueless as to what to look for to sort the problem...As it turned out , its something i should have spotted by myself , but i have learned a lot more about my Jeep from you all while poking around under the bonnet...Thanks to everyone who offered advise , a free beer awaits you in Poland..!