Birty Dastards Jeep Club

Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: garyf on November 07, 2007, 06:37:06 PM

Title: Cherokee Rear spring ride height measurement please
Post by: garyf on November 07, 2007, 06:37:06 PM: Can anybody tell me what the ride height of a standard 4ltr Facelift Cherokee should be, I have measured from the centre if the hub to the bottom of the wheel arch trim, I think it should be around 17.5 inches as I'm sure I have seen this on a website somewhere but can't find it again.

The reason I ask is I have just fitted a 3 inch ProComp lift and I'm sure I haven't got the 3 inch lift on the rear. The measurement I have is 18.5 inches with the lift fitted.

Just want to make sure before I go back to Explorer for some replacements.
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Post by: greggmo on November 07, 2007, 07:06:56 PM: does the truck look unlevel from the side?
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Post by: Dave69 on November 07, 2007, 07:53:25 PM: yep you got that figure correct, 17.5" from wheel hub centre to the wheel arch. mine now measures 21" with RE 3.5" lift but the front is settling down to 21"
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Post by: garyf on November 07, 2007, 09:45:43 PM: Greggmo, no the truck still looks arse end down that's what made me question it,

dave 69 thanks for info I will be giving Explorer a ring in the morning, my fronts sit spot on at 20 inch (+2.5 inch front springs) so no probs there just the old troublesome rear
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Post by: The Smiths on November 07, 2007, 11:25:51 PM: Hi Gary

The 3" lift I fitted said 2.5" on the paperwork but did give me 3" on a diesel (6" from where it was, nearly on the bump stops.

The codes on the springs they supplied me were: 53111

See if the codes are the same.

By the way have finally got the leather seats fitted and working :?
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Post by: garyf on November 07, 2007, 11:35:00 PM: hi, yes the code on the springs are the same as you stated, I believe what they say is that you get 2.5 inch at the front and 3 inch at the rear.

My worry is that in 6 months time towing the trailer with the SJ on the height will be no higher than normal.

I will give them a call in the morning to see what they have to say, but either way it would appear that I am going to have to change them again,
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Post by: greggmo on November 07, 2007, 11:38:24 PM: i would sway towards fitting extended rear shackles or an add-a-leaf kit. are you on lpg or have a lot of junk in the back? see the trouble with some of the kits that ride nice are a softer spring rate therefore they will still sit down very easy. the other thing is to take it over to pro comp and see what they say.i am sure they will try to help if they can.
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Post by: garyf on November 07, 2007, 11:45:16 PM: The problem is I only fitted the lift last weekend, there isn't really anything in the boot of any substance, I haven't even had the trailer on it yet so god knows what would happen if i did.

To be honest if they are that weak I would rather go with the block set up that I had on my previous Cherokee, I run that for 2 years towing a trailer every other weekend and used off road at least twice a month and never dropped at all.
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Post by: greggmo on November 07, 2007, 11:58:54 PM: take it to pro comp mate. it should sit level if its all new. maybe they have got the springs wrong by accident.
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Post by: The Smiths on November 08, 2007, 12:14:21 AM: The other thing to look out for is the bottom (stop laf) twisting out :( and a degree shim snapping.

Have just got the replacemnt springs and need to fit them - a bit bad seeing the original springs had been on a week and only did 100 miles with some light playing.

They did send replacements with no hassel though.
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Post by: garyf on November 08, 2007, 12:32:01 AM: That doesn't fill me with confidence giving that most of the time I tow the trailer and then also use this to play off road, my springs are definatly not going to have an easy life. starting to wonder already whether I made the right decision or not?????? sometime sbetter to stick with what you know works
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Post by: greggmo on November 08, 2007, 12:37:47 AM: i would still go with add-a-leaf if you do a fair bit of towing. even if the kit is new.
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Post by: dtooth on November 08, 2007, 04:21:34 PM: lifted this from NAXJA.org

full write up http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=912893 (http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=912893)

including piccies

Checking Front Ride Height

Measure front ride height with the vehicle unloaded (no luggage or passengers) and with the fuel tank full.

Place the vehicle on a level surface and measure the veryical distance between the top of the axle tube (A) and the underside of the frame sill (B). Refer to Figure 1 for driver's side measurement and Figure 2 for passenger side measurement. Be sure each measurement is taken from the top of the tube and not from the axle or shift motor housings.

With Standard or Soft Ride Suspension, vertical distance should be 17 cm (6-3/4 inches) plus or minus 13 mm (1/2 inch). With Heavy Duty Suspension, vertical distance should be 20 cm (7-3/4 inches) plus or minus 13 mm (1/2 inch).

Checking Rear Ride Height

Measure rear ride height with the vehicle unloaded (no luggage or passengers) and with the fuel tank full.

Place the vehicle on a level surface and measure the vertical distance between the top of the axle tube (C) and the underside of the frame sill (D) inboard of the jounce bumper (E).

With Standard or Soft Ride Suspension, vertical distance should be 15 cm (6 inches) plus or minus 13 mm (1/2 inch). With Heavy Duty Suspension, vertical distance should be 18 cm (7 inches) plus or minus 13 mm (1/2 inch).

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The letters in each paragraph refer to diagrams, which I have no way of reproducing. Once you get underneath and look, though, the measurement points should be fairly obvious.

This section of the FSM also provides a listing of stock springs and spring codes, but it doesn't provide any specifications regarding spring rate for the various springs.

The springs are coded with a 2-letter code. In general, moving up one letter increases ride height by 1/2 inch. For example, stock (standard) front coils are coded FC through FP. If the right front has a spring coded FH and rides 1/2" too low, replacing that coil with one coded FJ would raise it 1/2". Typically, the factory used front coils with one letter code higher on the driver's side, to compensate for the weight of the driver.
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Post by: tag on November 08, 2007, 05:15:32 PM: Hi, i fitted leaf springs from a ford escourt y reg van £20 scrap yard! 3 inch lift been on 18 months no probs . i cut the eyes off the ford springs and fitted them under the top cherokee leaf ,so i have 3 leaf springs and a small overload spring per side, and that gives you spare leaves if you want to go higher. drilling the center hole is a pain but worth it!
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Post by: Bubba on November 08, 2007, 06:15:03 PM: i like home built how toos
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Post by: garyf on November 09, 2007, 10:51:41 PM: Made contact with explorer and got to say not too impressed at this point , I recieved one or two suggestions, but we'll wait and see what happens, I have sent them photographs and measurements so they can send them to the states and see what they come up with.

Has anybody else experienced similiar problems with the kit from Explorer.
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Post by: isle of man on November 10, 2007, 08:43:51 AM: i have had dealings with the guy at explorer and found him to be honourable.

supply all the information he has asked for, i'm sure the outcome will be amicable.

peter henry
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Post by: JamesH on November 11, 2007, 03:13:39 PM: Just as extra information, standard XJ measurements from wheel hub centre to bottom of plastic wheel arch is 17" at rear and 17.5" at the front. The plastic arch is mounted slightly on the front and this can exagerrate the arse-down look.

I would be looking for a good 20" measurement at the rear when you first install a lift as XJ leaf springs always sag and settle a bit.

:)
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Post by: The Smiths on November 11, 2007, 03:53:08 PM: Gary,

Fitted my replacement springs a couple of days ago (same code as the ones you have).

Drivers side is 21"
Passenger side is 22"

These are the same measurements as the first set I had, don't know why there is a big difference checked that both springs were the same before fitting.
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Post by: Dave69 on November 11, 2007, 05:07:28 PM: dont get too concerned with the sag left to right, my rubicon express lift sags lower on the right. so it happens to all the manufacturers
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Post by: garyf on November 11, 2007, 07:37:21 PM: I'll see what they say tomorrow,

I feel that there is something wrong with the passenger side rear spring, I had some bits in boot today and it seemed to sag down on that side far more than the other.

Just bought another '98 Cherokee 4ltr that has done 100 thou and still got original springs and the rears and it still measures 17.5 inches from the centre of the hub to lower edge of arch.
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Post by: Sam on November 12, 2007, 10:46:35 AM: gary me old pal, wish you had told me you were considering buying that kit ya poor bugger (you have PM)
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Post by: garyf on November 12, 2007, 06:50:54 PM: Hi Sam, sorry should have mentioned something at camping weekend but never thought about it, funny you say what you say about bottom leaf but that's about the fourth person that's told me that.

I will see if I can make a spring clamp to go round the spring once I get my problem sorted. :roll:

PS Jeep looked good at the camping weekend. See you soon :)
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Post by: gordy on November 24, 2007, 08:55:32 AM: 17 1/2" front , 17" rear, centre of wheel cap to bottom of flare. I got a procrap 3" lift, and after 2 yrs, get 3 1/2" (20 1/2) lift at the rear, every time I wheel at KORC the rear lifts up 1/2". Seems the procrap likes a lot of flexin- 2 1/2 up front thats coz I got heavy winch bumper & winch, gonna put a couple of Super Pro 1" spacers up front today if Royal Fail get their ass in gear

I got the silver XJ from Mildenhall Offroad club.
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Post by: The Smiths on November 28, 2007, 12:10:17 AM: My replacemnt Procomp rear springs have just twisted again - 200miles and one trip offroad AGAIN :evil:
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Post by: greggmo on November 28, 2007, 10:34:46 PM: when ya say they have twisted do you meen one or two of the springs has come out of line with the others and can snag the tyre?
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Post by: Sam on November 28, 2007, 10:40:26 PM: Quote from: "greggmo"
when ya say they have twisted do you meen one or two of the springs has come out of line with the others and can snag the tyre?

Aye its happened to 4 people i know who have had the pro comp cherry lift springs (bottom leaf swivvels and attacks the tyre) :?
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Post by: greggmo on November 28, 2007, 10:53:41 PM: the sky jackoff ones do the same. the remedy is to get some of the clips that bend around the spring pack and keeps them in line. some springs come with em some dnt but thats all it takes to fix it.
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Post by: garyf on November 28, 2007, 11:11:25 PM: Still waiting for my replacements but got to say I will also be bringing this to their attention as i have just fitted new set of tyres and if they shred them I won't be 2 happy, obviously there is a problem with them and they need to be providing the goods to sort it out :roll: then the pimping film on the windows to finish it off.
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Post by: Sam on November 28, 2007, 11:18:39 PM: Quote from: "garyf"
Sam was it Dave Kirby who made you the bumper and rocksliders, I want to get rid of the chrome off of mine, got the lift on obviously, got the Mud boots on, snorkel is ready to fit when I have the balls to drill the wing ??? then the pimping film on the windows to finish it off.

no dave never made mine - i had mine done by a bloke in mansfield before dave started doing them. Dave will sort you out with anything you need though (its his new business now) hes done tony's (chickenlegz) and steves (revdoc's) cherries front and rear bumpers and sliders and he's cheap too give him a ring
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Post by: The Smiths on November 28, 2007, 11:25:16 PM: This is what I mean by twisting
(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/1062_nearside_spring_twisted_1.jpg)

The bottom spring is a stop spring and not linked to others at all :?
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Post by: greggmo on November 28, 2007, 11:48:02 PM: thats what i had in mind. the u bolts should be mega tight for a start(not suggesting they aint) also you could consider a little splat of weld near the spring perch to keep em in line. it is a pain though and like you have said it should not do this with a new kit and if it does it should come with a fix in the kit. have the guys at pro comp commented on this situation?
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Post by: The Smiths on November 29, 2007, 12:31:08 AM: I like the idea of the weld on the seat - should stop it twisting around.

Was thinking about making a strap to hold the leaves together near the perch so that it did not stop movement.

The U bolts are very tight.

Awaiting the next move from Procomp, I am saying that they are not fit for purpose - see what they come back with :?
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Post by: Mike Pavelin on November 29, 2007, 09:01:35 AM: I would say it has something to do with the degree shim. If you look, it is turning as well.
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Post by: The Smiths on November 29, 2007, 09:57:09 AM: Quote from: "Mike Pavelin"
I would say it has something to do with the degree shim. If you look, it is turning as well.

The degree shim comes fitted in the pack.

The degree shim is twisting with the bottom leaf, these seem to hold together well, but they just pivot around the pin/bolt.
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Post by: JamesH on November 29, 2007, 10:18:12 AM: An extra spring clamp (Hendrick clamp??) will solve the problem.
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Post by: gordy on November 29, 2007, 10:45:35 AM: Quote from: "Sam"
Quote from: "greggmo"
when ya say they have twisted do you meen one or two of the springs has come out of line with the others and can snag the tyre?

Aye its happened to 4 people i know who have had the pro comp cherry lift springs (bottom leaf swivvels and attacks the tyre) :?

Mine too, although they don't touch the tyre. Maybe worth making some of these:

(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/439_100_0160_1.jpg)

Details from this site:

http://www.rocklizardfabrications.com/h ... _boost.htm (http://www.rocklizardfabrications.com/home_brew_budget_boost.htm)
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Post by: dtooth on November 29, 2007, 02:04:46 PM: Had this problem with an old set of pro comps that did cut the tyre,got in touch with them and they sent me replacement springs no probs although it appears to be a design flaw and a clamp on the end would solve this.
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Post by: garyf on November 29, 2007, 06:52:52 PM: The problem with the clamps like that are they need a securing point on the bottom leaf, the only way to do that is to drill a hole in the stop leaf, firstly have you ever tried drilling spring steel, secondly once you have done this they will reject any claim made a against them under warranty.

On the stock springs you are ok to use this type because all the spring leaves are close together, on the ProComp ones if you was to fit them without securing them they would walk up the leaf eventually and start to clamp the leaves together (if that makes any sense) hence you would loose the lift or suspension drop.

I have the idea of making a U bolt clamp similiar in design but then drilling a pair of holes and fitting the long bolt on top of the bottom leaf, hopefully this would keep the U clamp in place and then allow the leaves to rub on the 2 uprights that left, the only thing I am unsure about is how much pressure there is when they try and spin, if this is quite alot then it may bend the uprights and still have the same problem. This probably doesn't make a lot of sense to anybody else but I know what I mean.
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Post by: greggmo on November 29, 2007, 10:03:58 PM: bit of a night mare. if you do go for a tack of weld just be careful with the heat that gets into the spring and that you only tack the bottom one to the one directly above it. i see what mike means about the shims but to be honest they never seem to be a great fit do they?
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Post by: The Smiths on November 29, 2007, 10:26:42 PM: Quote from: "garyf"
I have the idea of making a U bolt clamp similiar in design but then drilling a pair of holes and fitting the long bolt on top of the bottom leaf, hopefully this would keep the U clamp in place and then allow the leaves to rub on the 2 uprights that left, the only thing I am unsure about is how much pressure there is when they try and spin, if this is quite alot then it may bend the uprights and still have the same problem. This probably doesn't make a lot of sense to anybody else but I know what I mean.

That sounds like it may work.

It will need to be at least 8mm strip though - the bottom leaf creates a lot of force - I needed a 4lb lump hammer and a lot of effort to move the first lot back in place (and I'm not small).

The other thing I was thinking of was utilising the U bolts and using plates between them and the side of the springs and then perhaps bolting across the top and bottom to give more rigidity.
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Post by: garyf on November 30, 2007, 06:13:28 PM: I've got some 8mm x 30 flat bar I will get bent tomorrow, I aren't using mine off road currently due to fitting snorkel, dis-connects, and a few other mods, don't know if you want to try on yours 'The Smiths' in the meantime PM me if you do
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Post by: tag on December 01, 2007, 04:41:08 PM: Been reading this thread with interest, as i have posted before i have ford escort van springs under the original top leaf on my xj, what may be useful to you is the bottom leaf overload leaf has a u shaped plate riveted to it that stops the leaves from getting out of position , the problem you are having, have a look round your local breakers yards for a y reg ford escort van and you will see what i mean. it would be easy to install under your springs also mine cost me £20 for 2 springs hope this helps...........
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Post by: dtooth on December 01, 2007, 05:40:17 PM: I tried to drill the spring :cry: i have seen on the pro-comp web site some of the leaf pack have that clamp fitted .
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Post by: garyf on December 15, 2007, 11:49:18 PM: Guy at Explorer contacted me has he said he would in relation to replacement lift springs and collected them today, they will hopefully get fitted tomorrow, while I was there I mentioned to him about the springs twisting and causing tyre damage etc.. they are fully aware and he is going to send me an e-mail that he has from the states. I will paste the email that is sent once recieved but I have seen it on his PC.

Got to say what it states actually makes sense, not saying that this is the problem but basically they are saying that there is a possibility that the spring centre bolt that locates in the axle case is bottoming out in the hole, possibly because the bolt is slightly too long or that the hole has a build up of muck/corrosion in it. If this is the case when you tighten the 'U' bolts up the spring is actually tightening on the bolt rather than the leaves.

I will check this on mine tomorrow to see how deep the hole is in relation to the length of the center bolt. if it is bottoming all that is required is to grind some off of the bottom of the center bolt.
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Post by: isle of man on December 15, 2007, 11:52:44 PM: top man.

peter henry