Birty Dastards Jeep Club

Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: Nosebolt on September 10, 2008, 10:51:27 AM

Title: loss of drive
Post by: Nosebolt on September 10, 2008, 10:51:27 AM

As you’re probably fed up of hearing by now, I got as far as the M32 slip road on the way to Cheapfest, stopped at the lights ok went to pull away and it started rolling then a sound like if you miss a gear and it lost drive. Tried changing high to low and all 4 gears plus reverse and the problems are the same.
At the road side I removed the cover panel and noticed that as I pulled away in 2wd while driving front prop is static and as soon as the noise starts the front prop spins, in 4wd the front prop turns slowly until the noise starts then it spins fast.
Anyway I started to remove the trans box today, got as far as getting access to the top bolt and removed the gear stick and noticed the fork didn’t look right (bit pissed I didn’t notice it when I changed the clutch earlier this year) so here are some pics.
1, is it damaged, badly repaired?
2, could it be the cause of my drive problem?
3, has anyone got one for sale?

(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/1234_moto_0289_1.jpg)(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/1234_moto_0290_1.jpg)
(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/1234_moto_0291_1.jpg)(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/1234_moto_0292_1.jpg)
(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/1234_moto_0293_1.jpg)

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Post by: scrw on September 10, 2008, 12:15:19 PM

I'd say that isn't your problem, if you are getting the front prop spinning the clutch is working, sounds more like a duff transfer case to me

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 10, 2008, 12:23:15 PM

thought that would be to easy

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 10, 2008, 05:58:32 PM

ok transfer box is out and I just realised that my Chiltons manual is shite!
other than an exploded drawing there are no details or service instructions.
any advice welcome

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Post by: scrw on September 10, 2008, 06:28:46 PM

personally I would test it for correct operation first. When I had one go bad I cheated and bought one from www.1stchoice.co.uk (http://www.1stchoice.co.uk)

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Post by: Dave69 on September 10, 2008, 07:35:26 PM

is it designed to be that bent and notched ??

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 10, 2008, 07:47:56 PM

Quote from: "Dave69"

is it designed to be that bent and notched ??

I don't know, all I can say is the gear change was smooth

Title: lost drive
Post by: davethedog on September 10, 2008, 07:57:38 PM

hi let me know what you need i might have it, if you ask bubba (nicely)he can check for you , as he is very local to me and knows what he is talking about.
Regards D.T.D

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Post by: Bubba on September 10, 2008, 08:18:14 PM

ya problem is in with the transfer not the main box sure the shifter fork is well funky [looks like poor repair] but that would only lose  one gear maybe two but you wold still have maybe fist/reverse
you seem to have lost motion rather than a particlar gear could you refit the single shift stick to the transfer and bench test it even by hand you should be able to feel poor or no selection of high low
if it is a dana 300 it is known in rare/ish cases to bust the output shaft  but this is normaly combined with hi po v8s 35+tyres

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 10, 2008, 08:44:43 PM

the transfer box is now on my work bench and if I get time tomorow I'll be unbolting bits to see whats inside.
I dont have the original single stick anymore but the twin feels like it locates ok and will drive for a few seconds before the noise starts and drive is lost.

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Post by: Bubba on September 10, 2008, 08:47:57 PM

expect some kind of debris then

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Post by: JohnFuk on September 11, 2008, 01:16:46 AM

Hi Mate
Try

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PDFs/ (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PDFs/)

Go down to [Jeep component service manual TCase_NP231]

I think its what your after

 

Best of luck

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 11, 2008, 08:12:29 AM

Quote from: "JohnFuk"

Hi Mate
Try

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PDFs/ (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PDFs/)

Go down to [Jeep component service manual TCase_NP231]

I think its what your after

That’s exactly the sort of thing I was after, but I have a Dana 300  :cry:

There’s always the weekend  

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Post by: JohnFuk on September 12, 2008, 11:36:30 PM

Best of luck hope it all goes well

Title: wot no drive!
Post by: wildwood on September 13, 2008, 09:07:17 AM

I am guessing it is the shifter forks and a couple of chipped gears , all salvagable and all replaceable its a nice box to work on even the roller bearings aren't such a hassle to deal with.
Had a google last night seems that Quadratec have all the bits either singly or as a kit and if you do win the lottery small time tonight they do rebuilt and guanranteed cases for about $1,000. Not cheap but cheaper than an Atlas?!!
Best of luck

Title: cheaper
Post by: wildwood on September 13, 2008, 10:20:20 AM

Just googled again and found this
http://www.hicks4x4.com/transfer_case_price_list.htm (http://www.hicks4x4.com/transfer_case_price_list.htm)
rebuilt Dana 300s at $795 thats about £470 before shipping.
I know its money you never wanted to spend but  I know rebuilds always have a ever increasing shopping list of parts
best of luck

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 13, 2008, 04:04:34 PM

ALL HAIL THE GURU BUBBA!!!

I recon Bubbas first diagnosis was correct, sticky selectors. Oil drained as clean as when I put it in 3 months ago. Visual inspection shows no damage to the gears. Only thing I found was a build up of crud around the selector shafts. With the inspection cover removed from the underside and the box up side down on the bench it all works fine. Next is a good clean, make a new gasket, reassemble and test again right way up.
Can’t refit to the CJ till Monday because the jack locked in m8s workshop.

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Post by: scrw on September 16, 2008, 11:44:48 AM

Saw a "Jeep" (unsure what it was, flat fenders) the same orange colour as yours on the a55 yesterday, wasn't you was it?

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 16, 2008, 03:19:07 PM

na m8,
I did try to get Dan to push it while I sat in it for some fun but he moaned that it was to heavy

not been drivable for week now

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 21, 2008, 04:32:14 PM

GOOD NEWS!!!

it's not the trans box, that fine :cry: finally did what i should have done BEFORE I took out the transfer box, and looked at the rear drive shaft while it made that god awful noise, whn the noise starts the rear prop shaft spins like it do 60 with the car stationary. having spent last few hours putting transfer box back in I havent taken the diff apart yet but a pound to a pinch of shit thats the problem.

Next question is re-build or replace? money is a big factor but was a future plan to fit one piece shafts so this might be the time.

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Post by: Bubba on September 21, 2008, 05:48:22 PM

you have spun a shaft in the hub look at the nut on the pasenger side rear wheel the large nut in the middle bet its spinning on the hub [always seems to be that side first]

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 21, 2008, 08:06:04 PM

Run out of daylight so will have to check tomorrow, just to be clear do you mean the drive shaft is spinning in the hub?

If so a perfect excuse for a set of one piece shafts, but to be honest it sounds more "gear-y" so with my luck will be in the diff it’s self.

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Post by: captain cavalier on September 23, 2008, 08:28:18 AM

Go on then what happened

This is turning into a saga

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Post by: Bubba on September 23, 2008, 10:02:32 AM

yup i meant shaft spinning in hub makes a fearfull noise

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 23, 2008, 10:24:11 AM

Sorry I keep getting interrupted by work  :roll:

Title: Update
Post by: Nosebolt on September 23, 2008, 12:07:26 PM

The nearside shaft seems ok (don’t spin) offside can’t be checked yet, I can’t get the cap off, seized solid.  :roll:

So will be a few days before new better quality bit turns up.

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Post by: Bubba on September 23, 2008, 03:26:12 PM

but the cap is plastic asault it and show it you aint kidding and it will jump off

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 23, 2008, 03:37:18 PM

na its metal, rust 'n' all
(http://http://birtydastardsjeepclub.com/forum/userpix/1234_moto_0300_2.jpg)

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Post by: captain cavalier on September 23, 2008, 04:26:03 PM

Have a plasma cutter at work

Can get it off but cannot guarantee what else will follow.

And putting it back together would be hard

BUT its great fun

One of the best big boys toys ever[/list]

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Post by: Bubba on September 23, 2008, 04:28:38 PM

thats a 77/78 axel they only fitted them tin caps for one  year

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 23, 2008, 04:32:36 PM

LoL that don’t surprise me, this rig is turning out to be a real mongrel, to be honest I cant wait till it running enough to get it to a club meet so it can get looked at by a few of you knowledgeable gentlemen (I use that term loosely) it would be nice to know what it realy is.

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Post by: Bubba on September 23, 2008, 04:33:45 PM

maybe its a covert austin gypsy

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 23, 2008, 04:53:03 PM

Quote from: "V8 Bubba"

maybe its a covert austin gypsy

I couldn't be that lucky.

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 23, 2008, 05:08:49 PM

Back to a serious note, it is an AMC 20, but did different years have different ratios?
If so what do I need to source?
Am I governed by what’s fitted in the front? (Dana 30, by the bolt pattern).
And if I am going to get one piece shafts how do I know what kit I need?
I am going to stop thinking about it now cos my head hurts.

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Post by: Bubba on September 23, 2008, 06:11:53 PM

there is a few ratios  but i would be quite surprised if the diff  is shagged they are bigger tougher diffs than a dana 44 the only thing that can  happen as with any diff is the bearings may go
you will asuming all is well with diff need a one piece shaft narrow trac kit

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Post by: captain cavalier on September 24, 2008, 09:02:13 AM

Have you tried (carefully) turning the caps with a large pair of stilsons to loosen them.

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Post by: captain cavalier on September 24, 2008, 09:02:39 AM

Have you tried (carefully) turning the caps with a large pair of stilsons to loosen them.

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 24, 2008, 10:28:24 AM

Nearside one is off and shaft is ok, offside is stuck but if I wasn't so lazy I would take the wheel off then job would be easy.

But as I mentioned before time is an issue at the moment so I am grabbing 5 mins here and there when I can till the weekend than I can put some time in the job.

Unfortunately it’s not like when I did the respray when I told all my customers I had gone away for 2 weeks  

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Post by: eastryjeep on September 24, 2008, 01:11:53 PM

Ah, an AMC 20. With all the verbal abuse these axles take its no wonder they put up a complaint now and then! Personally I recon they dont deserve the bad reputation they have, but then mine aint busted!
Anyway, I'd proceed as follows:
Wheel off.
Wire brush the dust cover where it goes into the brake drum.
Inspect closely, you're looking for 2 recesses in the cover which take a  flat bladed screwdriver, if none found - make them! (5 or 6 mm wide will do). Do not distort cover out of round or you'll be stuffed later.
Administer penetrating oil and wait, when bored of waiting put more oil and go for a cuppa!
After cuppa, or alternate bevy of choice, insert screwdrivers and pry cover out of brake drum.
Once cap starts to move you can increase the size of the screwdrivers, just keep the cap straight as it comes out.
Replace road wheel, apply brake, apply power and have assistant observe, if woodruf key on shaft has sheared the centre nut should spin, the wheel wont and the half shaft is kaput.  

With regards the diff cover bolts, take a Dremel and cut a slot in the heads of all those Torx screws and whip them out with an impact driver then replace them with hex socket screws - they are easy to get and you can even borrow a set of Allen keys off a cyclist nowadays, but Torx is just a pain.

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 24, 2008, 05:23:59 PM

Lighthouse have a set of one pieces in stock 292.50, I asume that will be made by crown.

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Post by: PtP on September 24, 2008, 06:25:18 PM

Would these fit?????????

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WARN-FREE-WHEELIN ... 286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WARN-FREE-WHEELING-HUBS-JEEP-AXLE_W0QQitemZ200256694785QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200256694785&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 24, 2008, 06:30:14 PM

from the pics the rear is offset so from what i'v been told wont fit my CJ  

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Post by: Bubba on September 24, 2008, 08:14:57 PM

they will fit the amc 20 is very slightly offset in all models but the amc 20 qaudratrac is drasticly offset by roughly a foot rather than a couple of inches but why by an unknown used unit from somone who does not realy know what he is selling the warn axle he refers two is nothing more than a dana 30 with avm freewheel hubs that is a south american copy of a warn free wheel hub although i think they are a licenced copy

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Post by: Bubba on September 24, 2008, 08:19:32 PM

they would seem to be from a 79

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Post by: Mick O on September 24, 2008, 09:40:35 PM

Quote from: "Nosebolt"

Lighthouse have a set of one pieces in stock 292.50, I asume that will be made by crown.

Could be crown.

They only recommend upto 31" tyres :-D

 

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 24, 2008, 09:53:44 PM

shipping quote requested  

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Post by: JamesH on September 25, 2008, 09:56:36 AM

Try http://http://www.ringpinion.com

I got Yukon shafts there for a good price for my C8.25 axle and found these that I think are correct for yours:

 http://http://www.ringpinion.com/PartsList.aspx?SearchMode=Diff&TypeID=1&Type=AMC&DiffID=1&DiffName=AMC+Model+20&CatID=1&CatName=Axles+%26+Axle+Bearings+&CatType=Sub-Differential

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 25, 2008, 11:29:59 AM

James, what did carrage and duty cost you?

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Post by: captain cavalier on September 28, 2008, 12:19:53 AM

how is it getting along the saga seems to be slowing down

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Post by: Nosebolt on September 28, 2008, 03:45:18 PM

all down to budget m8,  :-(

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Post by: JamesH on September 29, 2008, 01:45:13 PM

Sorry, I didn't ship them here - I was in Texas at the time so just brought them home with me  

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Post by: captain cavalier on October 09, 2008, 02:07:15 PM

Hows it going have u got it back on the road again

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Post by: Nosebolt on October 09, 2008, 02:50:59 PM

Na it’s on a back burner for a while, just lost one of my biggest customers, they have sold their business to a company that’s not interested in the mobile phone part of the business, that means a 40% drop in my income for now. All my effort is now on getting customer base back up and pushing the website.

So no money and no time, but as a fallback I have asked Father Christmas for a set of one piece axels and a diff overhaul kit, just need to be a good boy