Topic: TJ Dana 30 Lower control arm mount re-build (Read 17729 times)

Asylum · « **on:** April 30, 2007, 07:05:04 PM »

Well as you all know I had some trouble at kirton and Warthog has designed/built my new axle lower control arm mounts. Well it kinda went, remove axle, remove old mounts (both), build new ones, test fit, finish off, fit axle back on jeep. The following pics will show it far better than I can explain it. A lot of work has gone into these and I have learned loads thanks to Warthog. Cheers Hog, you got me back on the road once again. Just waiting for new shocks to arrive before a proper test (Bent and solid at the moment) and some drive shaft spicer bolts as they got chewed along with the other damaged items.

Thanks again Warthog.

daggie · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2007, 07:12:54 PM »

:lol:

greggmo · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2007, 07:48:49 PM »

cool pics guys. looks like a good job you've done. them gloves are a bit gay warthog :lol:

Mik · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2007, 08:01:40 PM »

Top job.

Unfortunately you will be ripping the chassis mounts off now. That style of control arm is great unless you want to do any froading.

They have less flex than the standard arms and as such are truly landfill.

Buy a set of Rubicon Express or Clayton or any of the other makes with a high misalignment rebuildable bearing on one end and make sure the upper arms are adjustable.

Warthog · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2007, 08:33:34 PM »

Quote from: "Mik"

Top job.

Unfortunately you will be ripping the chassis mounts off now.

They have less flex than the standard arms and as such are truly landfill.

Buy a set of Rubicon Express or Clayton or any of the other makes with a high misalignment rebuildable bearing on one end and make sure the upper arms are adjustable.

OooooH thats Harsh :? But hey, we worked with what we've got and can afford and learn from our experiances..... But:

- Chassis mounts are a piece of piss to make stronger, If it breaks we will fix it :wink:

As for my gloves Mr Greggmo..........I thought they were rather fetching and went well with the surrounding shades of spring :lol:

Mik · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:16:21 PM »

Quote from: "Warthog"

OooooH thats Harsh :? But hey, we worked with what we've got and can afford and learn from our experiances..... But:

Ive always found by far the most affordable way was to learn from other peoples experience.
The std arms are thin and tinny and flex beautifully. I would use them instead of anything from the skyjacker/procomp etc camp.

Your current train of thought will result in you welding your axles directly to the chassis and doing away with the pesky arms altogether.

Your team skills seem to be up to it, buy some joints from Currie or Daystar and get busy with your new arms.
If you leave it long enough your chassis mounts will drop off and you can jump a step straight to long arm :lol:

greggmo · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:46:14 PM »

the gloves do kinda go i guess. trust mik in what he advizes mate. i think you could say he has seen most jeep mods first hand and fixed the rest

shep bought the jks arms and they seem sweet. http://www.4wd.com/search.aspx?q=JKS+Control+Arms

isle of man · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:52:12 PM »

it's true those rubber bushings are tat.............ok in standard tj form but put to flex they fooooook up.

peter henry

Warthog · « **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:09:17 PM »

Problem i have come accross with "other people experiance" is it can be clouded by opinion or bias to what they chose.

This may come accross as an Arrogant statement by me, but im not try'in to be. I just need to see things up close and for myself sometimes, to understand and make my own conclusions too. However i will take your experiance/opinion and conclude upon it myself. :wink:

KingCJ got it sussed..........Mog axles and Triangulated 4 link front and rear. Hydraulic steering and it flex's like hell. All on a tight budget i may add.

isle of man · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:22:31 PM »

time will tell oh doubting one..........

peter henry

Bubba · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:51:30 PM »

go with what you feel if it goes shit shaped at least you can say you tride i also think you may be beefing up the other mounts soon

Warthog · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:57:04 PM »

Quote from: "isle of man"

time will tell oh doubting one..........

peter henry

Who ME!

I drive a Landy me :lol:

I have chosen my words carefully on my responses. As i know "Mik" is well respected by those whom I have listened to :smt023

Warthog · « **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2007, 11:02:42 PM »

Quote from: "V8 Bubba"

go with what you feel if it goes shit shaped at least you can say you tride i also think you may be beefing up the other mounts soon

SSShhhhh! Dont tell anyone............But the Lower control arm mounts on the chassis are already a little duffed up :wink:

Waiting for Asylum to get those Moggy's......

Asylum · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2007, 12:50:18 AM »

Well.......I can see what everybody is saying and very much understand warthogs points and frustrations as we have debated "the best approach" to the whole suspension/lift/axle set up for a while now.

At the moment I am very much limited to using what I got. Not a lot of ££ floating around and after running that suspension system for a year this is the first problem I have had with/caused by it. When I got it, I never new the amount of flex it has and the rigidity of the arms would over time wear a component (axle mount) to the point of fracture. Nobody every told me so. It didnt even occur to me that the axle mount was a weak point on the axle until it broke and you guys told me so.

I took everybodies advice and researched the crap out of the JKS/Currie axle mounts and mini skids and the rather more expensive rubicon full axle mount replacement kit. I came to the conclusion that my bank balance couldnt stretch to the rubicon setup that was hardcore and the Currie/JKS mounts with mini skids although cheap enough were only 1mm thicker material than the stock mount. The best thing in my opinion was to conclude that with warthogs skills on toe and willing help was to make some that rivaled the rubicon hardcore axle mount system for strength. I think his design has succeded if not surpassed it. And this has cost £10 in materials and a couple of weekends work.

Now, regardless as to if I had made my own, purchased the rubicon system or the JKS/Currie mounts the "weak point" would have still moved to the chassis! I think I am correct there, please correct me if I am wrong? so in essence there is nothing wrong with the new mounts but the problem caused by lots of flex and ridgid arms will over time take it toll on that next weakest point.

I have looked into the JKS short arms and they seem to retain the very same rubber bushings as in my present arms but allow a twist within the shaft helping with suspension flex. Looking closer at these though they would still suffer the same fate as my present arms if met with a frontal force, transfering the impact to the weakest point (now the chassis mount) as the arms will maintain its logitudanal rigidity. From what I can see Mik/peter/all you are saying introduce a rebuildable, relitively inexpensive "weak link" into the equation that can be carried as a spares and easily replaced on location ie. the high misalignment rebuildable bearing. Is this the same as a johhny joint? Better/Worse?

Now, please correct me if I am not quite understanding correctly. The introduction of the johhny joint type bearing would assist with axle flex and releave stresses on pionts that would normaly have stress applied by the tradition rubber bushing, and would also become the weak point should a direct force be applied along the shaft, giving before the now weak point "the chassis mount"?

OK I have been looking at johny joints for a while now also and looking at the Currie johhny joint control arm system for ideas. The problem I can see with all the short arm kits is the arms are straight. The present arm I have has a kink in to assist with the angle from chassis mount to axle mount and helping clearance. All other short arm systems I have found are straight, thus reducing axle articulation by hitting the back of the spring/shock perch sooner. Hence the advantage with reduced angle of the long arm systems. Looks like another mindfield!!!!

Any ideas greatly appreciated.

I will add though that not many people can put all the problems right in one go mostly due to budget and as far as I am concerned, thanks to warthog and others kindness and advice as soon as I have my new shocks and other bits will be back offroading again. All be it with the knowledge that my weak points have now moved and with a mind to rectifly that as soon as my funds allow. But if I were to worry about it too much the truck would never leave the drive and I would never get any enjoyment out it. Its a balance I think. It does annoy me that I can buy a product like the suspension system I have and the manufacturer must know the long term effects the system will have on parts and not document it.

Warthog.... It may be easier and cheaper to skip straight to the portals and custom long arm.....but no doubt that will have it problems too

isle of man · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2007, 06:11:32 AM »

johnny joint is the answer..............nothing new about them but they work.

peter henry

Warthog · « **Reply #15 on:** May 01, 2007, 06:49:02 AM »

Well lesson learnt and objectives met. Replaced what was broken (cheap) made it stronger. No rocket science involved but its "Ready to go wheeling again" :wink:

As for moggy axles or 303's....What problems....I was gonna weld'em to the chassis :shock:

Asylum · « **Reply #16 on:** May 01, 2007, 08:49:38 AM »

Quote from: "Warthog"

As for moggy axles or 303's....What problems....I was gonna weld'em to the chassis :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Steve B · « **Reply #17 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:29:35 AM »

Hi Asylum,

This is what you want, only $40 each and perfect for your fabrication skills. Just get 1 for each control arm and your sorted. You can cut off the poor polybushes which have no flex and give your control arms the flex they need.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestor ... px?id=1262

Steve

Warthog · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2007, 12:25:02 PM »

40 Dollars still won't remove the weakness issue of the mounts. As for the JJ's, You can get then from Straight forward supplies in the UK.

Mik · « **Reply #19 on:** May 01, 2007, 07:30:55 PM »

Quote from: "Steve B"

Hi Asylum,

This is what you want, only $40 each and perfect for your fabrication skills. Just get 1 for each control arm and your sorted. You can cut off the poor polybushes which have no flex and give your control arms the flex they need.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestor ... px?id=1262

Steve

Quote from: "Warthog"

40 Dollars still won't remove the weakness issue of the mounts.

There is no inherant weakness in the mounts but if your going to rip them off then a constant side to side twisting force is the most effective way to do it.
Control arms with just a polybush at either end can only twist as far as the poly can compress (which isnt very far) and then ALL the energy from articulating your axle go towards mount destruction.
Before the mount gets trashed its usual for the control arm bolts wear the mounting holes so large that they are unable to grip the sleeve which runs through the bush. This results in the nut coming loose and the subsequent overtightening which distorts the mount and crushes the polybush giving it even less flex.
The nut still comes loose.
A number of Jeeps Ive seen wear a lock nut. It doesnt fix the cause. It just makes them feel better.

A Johnny joint will swivel and twist with virtually no resistance, especially if kept lubricated, allowing the chassis mounts to deal with the front-to-back forces. I am certain you will find no instances whatever of mounts being damaged by these forces and I dont know of any instance where these have needed to be reinforced.

BTW an RE control arm avoids fouling at full articulation by offsetting the bush mount on the end of the arm thus avoiding the banana arm nonsense.

Mik

Warthog · « **Reply #20 on:** May 01, 2007, 08:06:12 PM »

Having had the axle off now a few times and getting a good look at it i can appreciate the issue and have seen that in time those types of arms and bushes are causing alot of stress on the mounts.

Looking back on the original Jeep arms, i now see that being naturaully flexible was part of the set-up. With axle mount strength to suit, i would assume that the original arms would buckle before the axle mounts.

Where i can see Asylums frustration lies is in the bullshit hype all these companies give about their products. What they dont tell ya are issue's like this.

See...........im learning all the time, taking onboard what ya got to say Mik, Peter and all :wink:

All i reckon the post was put up for was to show others a potential problem lurking under ya truck and how with a bit a time/help it can be resolved. A few members on Birty's were at Kirton when it got trashed. They were interested in the problem as they were also embarking on mods to suspension etc.

Cheers

greggmo · « **Reply #21 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:01:04 PM »

i like usefull educational threads like this one. we all learn off each other and thats good. :lol:

Warthog · « **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:03:42 PM »

Quote from: "greggmo"

i like usefull educational threads like this one. we all learn off each other and thats good. :lol:

I shall bring you a pair on the next play day.......... :wink:

greggmo · « **Reply #23 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:06:03 PM »

i shall run away.

doublej · « **Reply #24 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:19:33 PM »

looks great - the mounts not the gloves

Author Topic: TJ Dana 30 Lower control arm mount re-build (Read 17729 times)

Mik

Mik

Steve B

Mik

doublej