Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: willo on February 03, 2012, 08:59:46 PM
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So I realise that this has been discussed at depth, but I thought I would try and get an updated view on the matter
So............(wait for the I told you so's) realistically if I keep doing the challenge type stuff, I am gonna have to swap out my HP D30, for something a little larger and thus stronger.
I have a standard TJ D44 with 4.56 in the rear with superior shafts and haven't broken anything yet, so I'm hoping that I can mix and match, as long as I have the same ratio's, correct me if I'm wrong, looking to the future I would like to be running 37's, rules dependant
so the choices for a new front axle are:
Dana 44 HD
Dynatrac Pro rock 44
Dana 50, like IOM's Mafia, don't know much about them
Dana 60/pro rock - though I'm told I will loose 3" ground clearance, so that'll be like being on 33's again
Dana 70
Dana 80
Then:
nissan?
Yota landcruiser?
Ford 9"
cough, Disco 2
anybody else got any ideas? ideally I'd like something cheap, strong thus reliable with good ground clearance and a reasonably easy to source parts factor
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i thought you was buying the mafia, job done :icon_winkle:
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i thought you was buying the mafia, job done :icon_winkle:
not unless i have won the lottey.....it really is a good deal for the money Peter is asking, just I haven't got it, and likely never will have. although it probably seems backwards, the only way I can pay for my Jeep is at a month a time, normally when payday comes.
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soz, thought you had a deal :icon_redface:
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what about stronger shafts and stuff like that before changing axles ????
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what about stronger shafts and stuff like that before changing axles ????
done that, its the R&P size that is the problem, along with the axle tubes
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Did you do the hi pinion change........? Or are you still TJ low pinion?
If not there's strength to be had in a passing XJ front axle....
OR...............
Left drop FSJ cherry Dana 44.......... (Lightys have one spare if you can twist their arm) thicker tubes and stronger
R and P. Will also go deeper than 4.88 :icon_biggrin:
I'm thinking cheap and available parts for you rather than suggesting the Dana60's for you again from Northampton :icon_twisted:
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Did you do the hi pinion change........? Or are you still TJ low pinion?
If not there's strength to be had in a passing XJ front axle....
Yup, unless I truss it which won't gain me any R&P strength, I reckon I am as strong as its gonna get, HP Dana 30 with RCV shafts running (reverse cut) 4.56
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dana 60's 35 spline
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Hell yes. tis Friday night so lets try to persuade you into Dana 60s.You know it makes sense...........
In the long run............ £5 k for 10-12ks worth of cut to size arb'd 4.88 killer axles............. :steeringwheel:
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so is there no logic on the thinking that I haven't bust my rear 44 so therefore a front 44 would suffice? or would the possibility of 37's count out the 44's?
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cheaper than stronger shafts arb's in 30's and 44's then throwing it all away when fitting 60's
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Hell yes. tis Friday night so lets try to persuade you into Dana 60s.You know it makes sense...........
In the long run............ £5 k for 10-12ks worth of cut to size arb'd 4.88 killer axles............. :steeringwheel:
How much weight do you think you have gained on the YJ since adding the bigger axles? are you using heavier winch rope to compensate?
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HP Dana 44 housing from the US and build up your own axle. Could use FSJ tubes and outers or use JK outers? Find a JK Rubicon axle? (they're D44)
Have you seen Cleggy's TJ? Nissan Patrol axles and and 'enthusiastic' driver with 36" Simex and I've never seen him bust axle parts (He did trash the stock D44 spectacularly so is more than capable of abuse)
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Weight added weight..........??? :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
Well the tyres probably weigh 100lbs more for the 4
The axles weigh 520 - 560 with brakes each (double the 44 and more than double the 30)
Plus I did the front and rear bumper with 4 mm rectangular section and the skid plate is 6 mm
600 lbs extra maybe......... but not running doors saves 75 lbs per side and no hard top ........ 150lbs so I am not too much of a weighty wonder.
Once the tube bender gets dialed in more will be coming off.......... skidplate in tube will save me at least 60lbs
Then next year back half off and tube the beast with 4 link ...... gotta earn some folding first...... :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
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The front axle on the mafia is ALL custom!!
Basically it's a TERA 50 (hp44 pumpkin tilted) 17% stronger than a standard DANA 44 and then DANA 60 outers and 35 spline shafts - the reason I chose this route is the DANA 60 pumpkin is foooookin huge and not much room under the engine sump - at the time of the Mafia build flex was my friend.
For a budget if I was you I would put a waggy front DANA 44 and a DANA 60 rear out of the box this is plenty strong for a 37" tyre and future upgrades could be factored as required.
For a future note my custom axles cost me £20k
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Waggy 44 and Nissans have the diff on the drivers side, so you would need a change of transfer box or a lot of welding (just to add to your costs).
For a future note my custom axles cost me £20k
cheaper to buy a Nissan patrol and remove its axles :icon_winkle:
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Waggy 44 and Nissans have the diff on the drivers side, so you would need a change of transfer box or a lot of welding (just to add to your costs).
For a future note my custom axles cost me £20k
cheaper to buy a Nissan patrol and remove its axles :icon_winkle:
like an un-flipt dana300? :jpshakehead:
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Years ago I tossed all the bits available at my Dana 30 and it was a waste of time and money. Went to a tj Dana front housing for awhile since I had spare gears and lockers. This was a short term gap but the unit bearings and brakes are the same so you are only adding a little gear and shaft strength. The newer axle tubes are much thinner and ended up bending. I stumbled across a high pinion D44 ford housing and put this in. So far so good after four years it is still doing great. The only limit now is the u joints.
Front d44 hp with 5.13 gears, ARB locker, Moser inner shafts, GM brakes 5x5 1/2 lug pattern and warn hubs, flat top knuckles and high steer arms.
Rear d44 with 5.13 gears, larger Superior shafts and matching Detroit and Teraflex discs. I think the shafts are 33 spline.
I went this route since I already had boxes of d44 parts. Everything is off the shelf except my inner long shaft but you can get these made in the states cheap enough. It gets you a cj lug pattern and incredible front brakes.
The only problem I had with the rear axle was two teeth broke on the ring gear once. This was a week after the rear drive shaft cv joint failed. The shaft was still attached to the axle and was flying about causing all kinds of damage in the short time it took me to get stopped.
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sounds a good idea delk how about 44 from a rubicon ?
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Willo have a word with Lighties about FSJ axles that they have lying around.
I spoke with them about 4 years ago before I went my chosen route.
Seems they wanted about £600 for a pair but that would be right drop.
They do have a spare left drop but wanted £800 for it as it was 'THEIR' spare
Dana 300s are around for what you bought the flipper for. And I beleive their was another Birty who was in the line for the flipper.
So there you go ...just a random Saturday morning thought. :icon_twisted:
And to add to this........before I go out and freeze doing some building work :jpshakehead: You can then contact 'PartsMike' and get flat top knuckles and hi-steer bits,probably upgrade brakes and all manner of financial damage :icon_twisted:
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The Rubicon 44 was what I installed the second time. Thin tubes that I managed to bend plus you are stuck with the all the weaknesses of the D30. It reuses all the outers so you are left with weak brakes, shafts, unit bearings and ball joints.
The Rubi housing was quite light. I bought it up in Seattle while visiting my parents then packed it as oversized luggage on the flights back to where I was living at the time. On the other hand the hp44 housing was picked up on a different trip and had to send it down by boat.
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Your always going to have problems with tubes unless you go custom 1/2" but you know much mooooooolar is required for that!!!.
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I don't know if this will be of any interest but here is what I ended up for the front axle in my TJ.
As I said it is a Ford HP Dana 44 with GM flat top knuckles and brakes. The reason I went to flat top knuckles in a Tj was tie rod conflicted with the drag link and track bar. moving this up by itself gave me the clearance to get everything where I wanted so it flexes great and drives really well.
I kept the track bar mount fairly low on the axle side to help with tire lift. I had seen a few people put the track bar above the center of the axle but if any side force was put in the direction the opposite tire would lift really easily. Since I kept the track bar low I also lowered the frame side a good ways trying to keep the angles down. The frame mount was quite long so I braced it with my old track bar back to the other side. The track bar angle and length are almost exactly the same so I don't suffer from any bump steer or other issues.
If I had mega money to spend on an axle I would be looking at a 609 combination. They take a HP Ford 9 inch and stick it in between Dana 60 knuckles.
[attachment=1]
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CLICKY...
(http://www.killeraxles.com/achsen/8.8_jeep_0.jpg) (http://www.killeraxles.com/achsen.html)
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CLICKY...
(http://www.killeraxles.com/achsen/8.8_jeep_0.jpg) (http://www.killeraxles.com/achsen.html)
can't get anymore info on it....I'd have real hard troubles buying anything from Tibus
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Can't find prices.................. probably just as well.................... :icon_biggrin:
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1980 and earlier Broncos and F150s ran a 44 up front.
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I just skimmed the thread cause i am playing catch up with all the threads so sorry if i missed something.
ideally I'd like something cheap, strong thus reliable with good ground clearance and a reasonably easy to source parts factor
It doesn't exist mate, when talking about strength the money will add up. So either give up or stop thinking about it like that. Or pray your one of those people that just happen across stupid good deals.
Your not in the land of Dana axles either mate, and i cant ship you any cheap. So it comes down to what you can find. If you want big tyres then run something that will hold the with stock internals. 37s? --
dana 60s and up
toyota 80s
mogs (dont even think about it, trust me!)
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JJ, you should introduce yourself.....
I'll introduce your truck :003:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/Tenbulls/Untitled-33.jpg)
Buy some of these maybe?
http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=336 (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=336)
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Isn't JJs truck still up at King CJ's looking for a buyer???
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I just skimmed the thread cause i am playing catch up with all the threads so sorry if i missed something.
ideally I'd like something cheap, strong thus reliable with good ground clearance and a reasonably easy to source parts factor
It doesn't exist mate, when talking about strength the money will add up. So either give up or stop thinking about it like that. Or pray your one of those people that just happen across stupid good deals.
Your not in the land of Dana axles either mate, and i cant ship you any cheap. So it comes down to what you can find. If you want big tyres then run something that will hold the with stock internals. 37s? --
dana 60s and up
toyota 80s
mogs (dont even think about it, trust me!)
Gee, thanks for your encouraging words of Wisdom, oh he who has returned from God knows where.....I am quite aware of where I live thanks, and the pitfalls it brings in trying to successfully compete with an american car.
I am merely trying to find an reasonable alternative (as I'm not hugely well off) to what I currently have, so that I can keep my Jeep running through an event.
Perhaps I should take your advice and give up, but then again I have no idea who you are so perhaps I'll just carry on in my own little way
Force 9's yeah I'm sure they will graft on to my jeep, but at that price tag I may as well import something propper
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Personally,
I'd listen to what he has to say.
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Force 9's yeah I'm sure they will graft on to my jeep, but at that price tag I may as well import something propper
I didnt think they were that bad on the price? Show me a pair of imports that are gonna be cheaper?
I think once you start looking for Budget/Lower doller options. All avenues, slowly reach deeper into your pockets.
Import something propper? One has to assume thats a Lardie Hate thing :003:
JamesH comment of Cleggys would be good advice.
Or take on some 1 tons like Wildwood.
Buying the "Mafia" isnt that bad an option either :icon_winkle:
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Force 9's yeah I'm sure they will graft on to my jeep, but at that price tag I may as well import something propper
I didnt think they were that bad on the price? Show me a pair of imports that are gonna be cheaper?
I think once you start looking for Budget/Lower doller options. All avenues, slowly reach deeper into your pockets.
Import something propper? One has to assume thats a Lardie Hate thing :003:
JamesH comment of Cleggys would be good advice.
Or take on some 1 tons like Wildwood.
Buying the "Mafia" isnt that bad an option either :icon_winkle:
yep, I know what you are saying, I am just starting out on the research the yota/nissan route but don't really know where to start or what I'm looking at.
To be fair, the Force 9's are a good price, considering you are getting an ashcroft locker (billed to be better than an ARB, and about half the price) and a full set of D60 diameter RCV shafts, the only problem I see is the R& P ratio's which I think are standard landie, at 4.11, so some gearing trickery would have to be done elsewhere to keep them in line with running 4.88's and I'm not sure how or if you can do that?
Also from the pics it looks like they are drivers side drop
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I recall seeing Mick's Clayton Cherokee with a flipped front Toyota axle - he said he would not do another.
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Thing is if your not doing it yourself, or mates rates? The labour is gonna be a killer.
Ashcrofts has a great reputation for sorting peeps out. Give them a call and see what he can do for ya?
Being an engineering firm, with all the in house machinery to cut gears etc, ratios shouldnt be a problem.
Train of thought would lead to, the piece of mind. I would have knowing the spares and support are here in mainland UK.
I personally like the 1 ton avenue, keeping thing Dana and stateside.
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could you not buy some heavy ass old yank pickup and heave the whole drive train in ? the problems all seam to be the diff on the wrong side
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could you not buy some heavy ass old yank pickup and heave the whole drive train in ? the problems all seam to be the diff on the wrong side
And build a Truggy around it...SIMPLES! :003:
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Thing is if your not doing it yourself, or mates rates? The labour is gonna be a killer.
Ashcrofts has a great reputation for sorting peeps out. Give them a call and see what he can do for ya?
Being an engineering firm, with all the in house machinery to cut gears etc, ratios shouldnt be a problem.
Train of thought would lead to, the piece of mind. I would have knowing the spares and support are here in mainland UK.
I personally like the 1 ton avenue, keeping thing Dana and stateside.
Excuse my ignorance, but what is the 1 ton exactly? D60 front and something big on the back? I am hesitant about going D60, whilst I appreciate they are as strong as, I will loose a whole heap load of ground clearance, that being said, that's maybe where the winch comes in, as lets face it its better to have shit ground clearance on a working axle rather than a bust high clearance axle, Bust axle is a definite no fix in the field scenario.
Bubba, do you mean like that 715 that is parked about 2 miles up the road from me?
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Thing is if your not doing it yourself, or mates rates? The labour is gonna be a killer.
Ashcrofts has a great reputation for sorting peeps out. Give them a call and see what he can do for ya?
Being an engineering firm, with all the in house machinery to cut gears etc, ratios shouldnt be a problem.
Can you re-gear a D300? it seems Ashcrofts 4.11's are custom made
When I have made the (hopefully) correct decision on which path to follow, I will start off with replacing the front, as like I have said before, I am yet to (touch wood) bust my rear
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possibly it does have a d60 front and a 70rear but the d60 is a closed knuckle type and not considered as strong as the open knuckle gearing is something like 5.77 if it has original engine its a ohc tornado again not the best
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can't remember what engine it had in it straight 6 I think, all a bit of a sorry state too, also them axles are friggin wide, would have to do some tube surgery to make them fit
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Can you re-gear a D300?
Indeed...
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DANA 44 rear I bust easy - even the custom Rockrusher on the Mafia had to be kissed by Gasser - I beat them hard!!!
Currently on my second gearbox on the buggy after fooooking the bellhousing - the DANA 60 and 14 BOLT combo are standing up very well.
Beef is going to cost and it is going to be heavy.
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yup use a terra low
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Good referance build projects:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578353 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578353)
Oh, and you can break anything if you try hard enough..... :003:
As to Winch Challenge events, ditching those electric winches for PTO could be of benefit. The right set-ups will drag anything around. :icon_biggrin:
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Ok, so what axles are on that DJ/JJ rig?
Seems I need to wait til re-mortgage time, or wait until banks are being kind again.....or buy the Mafia.....
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Ok, so what axles are on that DJ/JJ rig?
MOG...
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If you cant take some sarcasm-bluntness over the internet i don't know what to tell ya. But its easy to tell you have no idea what your getting into, we all start somewhere. no worries. But if you don't want the feedback from guys that have dug the ruts your driving in - stop asking mate.
That Jeep of mine was built in a driveway in England. And it didn't have stupid money thrown at it, just lots and lots of time and metal.
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Terra Low got a real bad reputation on Pirate caused them to be labelled 'Terra Blow' Cant remember the name of the good one.twill come to me in time :jpshakehead:
Willo keep looking..................... took me a lot of balls to cut my DD up into pieces not knowing if I would fall at the first hurdle or just get lost :jpshakehead:
My Dana 60 and 14 Bolt cost me a swap with my original axles........... so nothing..............or......... .one feck of a wad spread over 7 years.
But even now I have stuff arriving via Bundlebox on Wednesday...... lower r and p and stuff ............... so the jobs never done...... and you've already read my ramblings about 4 linky stuff for next year.
All I can say is the 2 years I got involved in something else (building) I lost interest in offroading...... so for me the build and feckin around is as much fun as the froading. Other might disagree vehemently.
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If you cant take some sarcasm-bluntness over the internet i don't know what to tell ya. But its easy to tell you have no idea what your getting into, we all start somewhere. no worries. But if you don't want the feedback from guys that have dug the ruts your driving in - stop asking mate.
That Jeep of mine was built in a driveway in England. And it didn't have stupid money thrown at it, just lots and lots of time and metal.
sorry, there is no way to tell what is and what isn't sarcasm on an open forum, without perhaps knowing the person, first,. If I had realised that you were intending on being sarcastic in your first post then perhaps I wouldn't have bitten. But as I don't know who you are from Adam, its a bit hard to tell.
I'm sorry if my ramblings aren't up to your God like status in knowing this and that about jeeps, but really, folk have got to start somewhere, and where Jeeps (especially in competition) in this country are few and far between I really don't think your comments of 'it is easy to tell you have no idea what you are getting in to' and 'perhaps you should give up' are particularly helpful positive or proactive.
Since being on this forum for possibly a little over a year I have been offered and taken superb sound advice from the likes of V8 Bubba, Isle of Man, Wildwood, Panic Mechanic, Dutch, Bulldog, Greggmo, Warthog,Tragic and many others to name but a few. Perhaps you need to sit back and take a note out of their books in order to be a real Dastard.
Me, I'll take advice from anyone, I love my Jeep, though its a bit of a pain at the mo. And hopefully I'll get my axle woes sorted soon enough.
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d44s would live with 37s as would crusier 80s or nissan patrol axles but they would be on their limit without some beefing. 60s/70s gm 14 bolt would be perfect. 80s would be way strong but take all your ground clerance.
then their is mogs or volvo portals.
their is a guy up this way selling pairs of d70s brand new for £300 on ebay at the moment
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d44s would live with 37s as would crusier 80s or nissan patrol axles but they would be on their limit without some beefing. 60s/70s gm 14 bolt would be perfect. 80s would be way strong but take all your ground clerance.
then their is mogs or volvo portals.
their is a guy up this way selling pairs of d70s brand new for £300 on ebay at the moment
Thanks, i have seen them, but am a little concerned about the closes knuckle on the front. Though i am not completly aware of their short comings, perhaps someone in the know could explain
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The old closed knuckle D60 has weak 16 spline shafts and drum brakes. There maybe other issues but everyone says stay away.
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Weight is the issue unlesss your building a Big block mud monster and losing the lard of the brakes and using pinion brakes.
Never seen that done here tho.....................
And the 4 to 1 kit for the dana 300 that doesn't Terrablow.............is called..................wait for i...............t LO-MAX
They do kits for std ratios as well. JP did a feature on them........Bulldog will have that article now :icon_biggrin:
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What is the ratio of the dana 300 in low?
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tiny bit less than a 231 about 2.6? I seem to remember
You might be OK depending on what your intending to do cos the torque converter is reputed to give a further reduction of 2.3 or some'at so unless rocks are your thing you'll be OK.
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Sorry to hijack, its not for the tj its on a mates cherokee thats getting patrol axles. So is it lower or higher geared than the 231? Sorry to sound dumb just not sure what ratio the std t case is.
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231 is 2.7? dana is 2.6? so 231 is more crawly by a tiny margin that you wont notice :icon_super:
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Thank you very much in the mine field of american forums I had got myself mixed up into thinking they were lower geared.
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If you cant take some sarcasm-bluntness over the internet i don't know what to tell ya. But its easy to tell you have no idea what your getting into, we all start somewhere. no worries. But if you don't want the feedback from guys that have dug the ruts your driving in - stop asking mate.
That Jeep of mine was built in a driveway in England. And it didn't have stupid money thrown at it, just lots and lots of time and metal.
sorry, there is no way to tell what is and what isn't sarcasm on an open forum, without perhaps knowing the person, first,. If I had realised that you were intending on being sarcastic in your first post then perhaps I wouldn't have bitten. But as I don't know who you are from Adam, its a bit hard to tell.
I'm sorry if my ramblings aren't up to your God like status in knowing this and that about jeeps, but really, folk have got to start somewhere, and where Jeeps (especially in competition) in this country are few and far between I really don't think your comments of 'it is easy to tell you have no idea what you are getting in to' and 'perhaps you should give up' are particularly helpful positive or proactive.
Since being on this forum for possibly a little over a year I have been offered and taken superb sound advice from the likes of V8 Bubba, Isle of Man, Wildwood, Panic Mechanic, Dutch, Bulldog, Greggmo, Warthog,Tragic and many others to name but a few. Perhaps you need to sit back and take a note out of their books in order to be a real Dastard.
Me, I'll take advice from anyone, I love my Jeep, though its a bit of a pain at the mo. And hopefully I'll get my axle woes sorted soon enough.
Geeze calm down a little, I don't remember throwing any bad name or the like your way. If anything - don't mind me... at the end of the day I am just the loud mouth yank with a few missing teeth and a hard southern pull. Weather the locals here call me a dastard or not is up to them, but I've shared a pint, grinder, mud hole, and sheep turd with most of those you named and would gladly go out of my way todo it again.
But I am not here to explain myself, thats what PMs are for - we can continue this there if you would like.....
And KingCJ I think you forgot how people drive at comps..... unless Willo uses his jeep as a mobile winch platform 44s wont last forever in stock form. And I think he is trying to keep the axles mostly stock. I also wouldn't worry about the ground clearance part. I always listen to people talk about that but how many rock gardens are in England? If its mud, tree, sandstone - just add more skinny pedal and push through it.
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Willo, i know you dont know Jay but let me add a little
hes a yank, tells you like it is, knows his stuff and always there to paddle in the mud, get you recovered, give you driving tips
would be a good winchie bitch for anyone, knows how to build a good truck so hes a good guy and even after been posted to far off lands he still wants to be a birty
He is not been funny with ya, he is being himself :icon_super:
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Since being on this forum for possibly a little over a year I have been offered and taken superb sound advice from the likes of V8 Bubba, Isle of Man, Wildwood, Panic Mechanic, Dutch, Bulldog, Greggmo, Warthog,Tragic and many others to name but a few.
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Make this thread a sticky :icon_super: ya readin this ya doubtin fuckers of my genius :003:
I tried to give Dutch the same advice but he went all magpie on me instead :lol_hitting:
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i thought he was being sarcastic.. :hysterical:
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i think its a typo tbh :icon_biggrin:
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He's confusing you with someone else dude..... :003:
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JJs the real deal, gave me a copy of Crawl mag and forever changed my view of going offroading and he hadn't even started HIS build at the time..... introduced me to mig welding and well 2 years down the line ..............................
2 courses at college Mig and tig... the build of the 1 ton ................shit loads of everything including doing brakes on the JJ machine and loads of other stuff.
As I've said before ...............I was bored and meeting JJ and King CJ who I have known since his monster was a normal CJ has made me look at the standard ish YJ and think feck this 'go big or go home.' Tis a hobby and you throw at what you can justify.............. Me ....I do more weldy cutty poncing around than I do driving.................. but that's cos I got fed up doing 6 hrs sorting a trials event and only getting to run the course for a 10min period.during that time.
For me its a bunch of guys going at it all day playing variations of follow my leader and having a laugh and helping each other out. Just like Cheapfest in fact :icon_super: :icon_super: :icon_super:
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I tried to give Dutch the same advice but he went all magpie on me instead :lol_hitting:
Dutch has a focused approach - BD you have a splatter gun approach (except when you cover all sins in BD black) never should the two be in the same sentence.
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I have a black roller lurking.......
So what should I expect running 35's on 4.11/4.10 lots of stalling and more grunt required?
Would this said D44 front axle have a longer pinion nose and thus I would need to re -assess prop lengths?
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don't stress on the props yet, worst case is a re tube for about £150 tops, get the rest best your budget allows then worry about props
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Well as its a new axle to you and you would need to weld on the spring pads and stuff....... you could........ as I suggested, go long arm........ I believe you can get to a whisker of 100" and still not have comp cut rear fenders.
Then...............
Well its a wallet fuck from there...... outboard the shocks........... oh that means chassis in way ....cut slice dice ......and go for coil overs or sway away or any desert racer stuff.......
But backing up to sanity time...... a long arm on the rear only to get you to 100" would help a load...... keep it coil and separate shock but out board the shock and...... it will be good :icon_biggrin:
My mind is in overdrive (prior to Merlot shut down) but I did read that a 4 " short arm lift will reduce the wheelbase by at least 3"
For what its worth :icon_super:
I think you can stretch front a couple of inches without affecting steering box issues....... If ya go that route I have a ZJ pitman arm that is 1" longer drilled for 1 ton TRE that i never used cos I went full hydro. It willeither give you more left and right or allow you to move axle to front. :icon_biggrin:
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don't stress on the props yet, worst case is a re tube for about £150 tops, get the rest best your budget allows then worry about props
I will need to re-assess props any way when the D300 gets fitted, re - tube for £150 :003: I thought I was looking at £500's for new props :jpshakehead:
So long arm, double triangulated, twin stick d300 oh and all the safety mods I need to do before KOV? not on my budget but something to aspire to, I feel my Jeeping project is getting slightly out of control, its great isn't it :icon_super:
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£500 for a new build, but you wont need that, reuse the expensive parts off the old prop for now
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£500 for a new build, but you wont need that, reuse the expensive parts off the old prop for now
Though my current rear prop is a bit buggered
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The d44 pinion is longer. I kept my stock drive shaft by moving my axle forward a little. That's the resin I am running the high steer parts and now the tires don't rub on the back of the fenders any longer.
Almost any axle will have a longer pinion then a d30 but all this can be worked out.
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http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=22&id=124807&Itemid=81 (http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=22&id=124807&Itemid=81)
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I have a black roller lurking.......
So what should I expect running 35's on 4.11/4.10 lots of stalling and more grunt required?
Would this said D44 front axle have a longer pinion nose and thus I would need to re -assess prop lengths?
When I went from a D30 to a D44 in the front I didn't need to change the prop, but the back I did, the AMC20 was a bit longer in the pinion, combined with the lift, fitting the D44 left the prop extended right out on the splines.
Got one made by these people-
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/ (http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/)
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Blues
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deal done dood?
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deal done dood?
very very nearly.....
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MOGS?
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is there any vids of JJs now for sale monkey tj :017:
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Mogs (dont even think about it, trust me!)
JJ's Monkey would be a good place to start, with them under a truck already :icon_super:
Alot of Blood, sweat and Redbull used in that build :003:
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Jeep Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK3LSdguxNk#ws)
there is more just got to figure out how to pull them off facebook :017:
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As indicated before this is a very intriguing topic and unmapped territory for me.
If I may jump on the band wagon here and fire off a couple of questions re. my CJ7 :
- What drivetrain have I got, I guess it standard but what. (I've got a 4speed box and wide track axles)
- Wont be planning rock crawling or time trials (flying aroung a track at a million MPH) any time soon
but if say anything decided to go pop after 30 years while doing some froading ..... what would you expect to go pop ? (providing everything is nicely greased up and fluids are current & level)
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but if say anything decided to go pop after 30 years while doing some froading ..... what would you expect to go pop ? (providing everything is nicely greased up and fluids are current & level)
your arse and sanity as you hear that rock gouge along the side of your infamous shininess and you realise there is no way out and you can only go forward and continue with the damage :003:
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I'll say it very slowly d r i v e t r a i n ......you ninckumpoop :icon_rolleyes:
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Dutch, your cj will be great for trials and tyro trials, think slow non damaging dont stop, it'll also teach you to to be a better driver, hence i am crap at them... I dont know much about cj 's but i expect you will need to keep an eye in uj's propshaft splines.
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As indicated before this is a very intriguing topic and unmapped territory for me.
If I may jump on the band wagon here and fire off a couple of questions re. my CJ7 :
- What drivetrain have I got, I guess it standard but what. (I've got a 4speed box and wide track axles)
- Wont be planning rock crawling or time trials (flying aroung a track at a million MPH) any time soon
but if say anything decided to go pop after 30 years while doing some froading ..... what would you expect to go pop ? (providing everything is nicely greased up and fluids are current & level)
As has already been said, the front drive shaft UJs are a weak link, if you ever replace them, make sure you buy genuine spicers .
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amc 20 rear end you would prob spin a rear shaft or at worst twist the tube and pumkin but if you stay on 31s you will have no isues
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the front drive shaft UJs are a weak link, if you ever replace them, make sure you buy genuine Greasable spicers .
[/quote]
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and first spend on the rear should be one piece shafts (if it aint already got em)
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hang on lets keep on track with willos bit dutch we can cover in detail any ideas in another thread lets not cloud things up
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Yeah damn thread poachers :hysterical:
I'm all good so far...The power of Birties has delivered! thank you all for your helpful and informative comments
carry on chatting axle tech if you will...
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ok then just one peice shafts is not quite enough on wide track amc 20 a careful bit of welding is advisable to the tubes where they press in to the diff casting as the wide trac can twist the tube and a truss would help if 35s and big power is used
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basically Dutch ya gonna burn cash and change the axles within 18 months
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basically Dutch ya gonna burn cash and change the axles within 18 months
and i may have a 44 rear up for grabs in the not too distant future...
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appparently 20 is stronger than stock 44
and dutch, dont let them scare you, its all about the way you drive, ask ADE :icon_winkle:
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who me :102:
:hysterical:
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appparently 20 is stronger than stock 44
and dutch, dont let them scare you, its all about the way you drive, ask ADE :icon_winkle:
Yeah but BD has Yul Brynner for tyres!!!
I have seen more tread on a TOWIE girl minge!!!
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appparently 20 is stronger than stock 44
and dutch, dont let them scare you, its all about the way you drive, ask ADE :icon_winkle:
is my d44 stock with alloy usa shafts? i dunno
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appparently 20 is stronger than stock 44
dont forget the 44 is semi float tho :hysterical:
but Dutch doesnt have a V8 or 35's (YET) to chew through his 20
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is my d44 stock with alloy usa shafts? i dunno
obviously not if it has uprated shafts
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is my d44 stock with alloy usa shafts? i dunno
obviously not if it has uprated shafts
i would say it'd have an arb too but it probably won't!, so i won't :003:
:fishing:
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:017:
i thought i was been helpful, but now just confused :icon_sad:
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:017:
i thought i was been helpful, but now just confused :icon_sad:
nope, ignore me, I'm just playing the fool, as 'I clearly don't know what I'm talking about' Might get curated again....
You were being helpful, don't be confuzzled :003:
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the problem is that i dont know what you got, 44 rear with arb got that, but didnt know about shafts etc
my point was stock 20 is stronger than stock 44 but then you go off on one etc :icon_rolleyes: you are looking at alsorts of possibilities on 2 threads, it aint easy to follow tbh and there are guys on here with loads of goood info and experience :greggmo:
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the problem is that i dont know what you got, 44 rear with arb got that, but didnt know about shafts etc
my point was stock 20 is stronger than stock 44 but then you go off on one etc :icon_rolleyes: you are looking at alsorts of possibilities on 2 threads, it aint easy to follow tbh and there are guys on here with loads of goood info and experience :greggmo:
point taken :greggmo:
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so what axles you moving up to ????
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Me ? ...... not moving up to anything. Just hope that what I've got stays in one piece.
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To quote JP mag.........oh feck here we go again.......
They observed that an AMC Corp 20 had stronger looking ring gear than a Dana 44........ but 2 piece shafts and tubes that spun.....and were weak
They re-did the shafts with High zoot 1 piece jobbies and retubed with seriously thick wall tube and fitted chev discs.....
could only go to 4.88 ratio cos that's the limitation of a 20...........
Great ....wonderful.........muppet proof. but it weighed in at the same as a Dana 60 and had cost then lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$
I guess proving tis better to grasp the nettle in the beginning :icon_biggrin:
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no, not you dutch, this is willos thread about axles and stuff
your set up will be fine, no worries :greggmo:
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Feck, well in a bid not to tempt fate..........
no I'm not gonna say yet, wait til they are on the drive, that way I can't get gazzumped :003:
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secret then :icon_eek:
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secret then :icon_eek:
No, Just I haven't got them yet, though the deal has been done, if I said about them then got gazzumped i'd be not a happy Willo
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well if the deals done its done in my eyes :icon_biggrin:
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tbh and there are guys on here with loads of goood info and experience :greggmo:
I think we have already established that would be me then :003:
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tbh and there are guys on here with loads of goood info and experience :greggmo:
I think we have already established that would be me then :003:
God help us all! :icon_eek:
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tbh and there are guys on here with loads of goood info and experience :greggmo:
I think we have already established that would be me then :003:
What have I done :banghead:
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bulldog, you are the destructive tester, that is all
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:hysterical: y'all crack me up
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I have made you famous Will :098:
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I have made you famous Will :098:
:icon_super:
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appparently 20 is stronger than stock 44
and dutch, dont let them scare you, its all about the way you drive, ask ADE :icon_winkle:
The crown wheel might be bigger and stronger in the 20, but that's about all. The tubes, wheel bearings, half shafts are all bigger on the waggoneer 44 in the back of my 7. Also get better clearance under the diff.
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amc 20 rear end you would prob spin a rear shaft or at worst twist the tube and pumkin but if you stay on 31s you will have no isues
and first spend on the rear should be one piece shafts (if it aint already got em)
So trying to understand the mechanics of a AMC 20 rear axle with reference to the above comment :
(and probably completely newby, lame ass questions so please don't blow my head off)
The pumpkin and the tubes are there to encase the cogs & shafts. I assume that the shafts are spinning freely
in the tubes so :
1) How could/would you twist an outer tube then if it is not a part of the drivetrain as such ?
2) One or two piece drive shaft ? That's the one that runs from the pumpkin to the wheel hub. As per below diagram how does that work ? are the two piece ones split in the middle or something ?
[attachment=1]
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I ain't no engineer but it would seem that under throttle the diff nose will rise wanting to cause axle tramp etc. the leafspring will want to hold the tube immobile and flat, the weak link is then the quality of the press fit or weld that joins the diff housing to tube....... and then twisty twisty tears!
The 2 piece shafts were probably a good idea to the bean counters but at the brake drum end the shaft goes thro the drum as a taper splined arrangement that is then held on by a nut :jpshakehead: This is where the mayhem occurs and the splines get rogered and the shaft spins with no effect to forward motion.
I have seen King CJ stick welding this nut on site at Kirton to effect a repair...usually the only way anyway after a spline spinning escapade.
Hope this explains :icon_super:
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So trying to understand the mechanics of a AMC 20 rear axle with reference to the above comment :
(and probably completely newby, lame ass questions so please don't blow my head off)
The pumpkin and the tubes are there to encase the cogs & shafts. I assume that the shafts are spinning freely
in the tubes so :
1) How could/would you twist an outer tube then if it is not a part of the drivetrain as such ?
2) One or two piece drive shaft ? That's the one that runs from the pumpkin to the wheel hub. As per below diagram how does that work ? are the two piece ones split in the middle or something ?
I have somewhere a 2 piece shaft thats been spun, but I cant find it . I would of put a pic of it on here. Basically the hub is separate from the axle shaft, it is held in place by a key way, and very fine splines/serrations on the axle shaft. This lot is then held in place by a nut torqued to 250 pound.
Its alright till it gets loose, then it will just spin. Make sure you check the nut every now and then. Its under the dust cover on the end of the axle, there will be a cotter pin as well.
Its similar to Dana 44 in the back of early CJs (pre 71).
The tube are very thin in those CJ 20 rear axles as well, you could bend the housing with some air time.
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I seem to remember also that the FSJ AMC 20 axle tubes are a lot stronger and I also think that just maybe although further research needed here that they are not two piece. :icon_super:
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I seem to remember also that the FSJ AMC 20 axle tubes are a lot stronger and I also think that just maybe although further research needed here that they are not two piece. :icon_super:
I think your right, they are thicker tubes and 1 piece shafts, that would make them getting on for D60 strength?
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Thanks chaps,
A light starts slowly glowing in the dark :hysterical:
Like you said it all has to be made on a budget otherwise these (IMHO VITAL) components
should have been made from Kryptonite, unobtanium or some other indestructible metal and
welded shut.
Hence trying to put heavy goods vehicle axles under Jeeps to avoid the "POP" but then
somewhere else along the line something goes bang, as Willo amongt others has painfully experienced.
I'll just stick to polishing my rims I think :icon_rolleyes:
:023:
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:078: way way too much info dood
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Rim polishing :jpshakehead:......................... reminds me of......................................
never mind.......................too early in the day
Nice girl tho :icon_twisted:
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fsj amc20 axles have a sort of two piece shaft instead of a nut on the end they are pressed together and welded
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we may have already been here when lookin for upgrades for the Bastard (I believe i was advised not to go there for reasons that escape me)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370584955740&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123#ht_575wt_1185 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370584955740&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123#ht_575wt_1185)
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we may have already been here when lookin for upgrades for the Bastard (I believe i was advised not to go there for reasons that escape me)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370584955740&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123#ht_575wt_1185 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370584955740&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123#ht_575wt_1185)
sealed hubs/uj's.......
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bingo
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These would need to be narrowed down unless you wanted to go with full width
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dana-44-Front-Rear-axles-Jeep-4x4-off-road-/230744245214?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35b96dc3de (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dana-44-Front-Rear-axles-Jeep-4x4-off-road-/230744245214?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35b96dc3de)
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Full width.way to go............ stop you falling over :icon_biggrin:
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Hmmm, Jana 54 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=948996), anybody running these in the uk?
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Never seen that before that looks like a nice way to go
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hmmm, im intending a regear on all mine :eusa_think:
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and ............... thoughts from the tech heads?
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what ratio
:icon_biggrin:
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getting the funky stepped bearing could be a major problem if ever needed replacing
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what ratio
:icon_biggrin:
4.88 for both full size on 35's, would allow scope for 37's altho I cant imagine when that would happen
4.56 for the 7
getting the funky stepped bearing could be a major problem if ever needed replacing
that is a thort worth pursuin, presumably u coud get them to stick some spares in the parcel (?)
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what ratio
:icon_biggrin:
4.88 for both full size on 35's, would allow scope for 37's altho I cant imagine when that would happen
4.56 for the 7
getting the funky stepped bearing could be a major problem if ever needed replacing
that is a thort worth pursuin, presumably u coud get them to stick some spares in the parcel (?)
I thort I read that you make that bearing stepped, could be wrong tho' :greggmo:
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any locker connected issues, as intending a rear in all 3 of the trucks
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Use lockrites............... cheaper and do the same as a Detroit. If I can't break one in a TJ 44 rear end with 35s in 10 years they must be sorta OK???
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any locker connected issues, as intending a rear in all 3 of the trucks
How much pinot did you have? You got to use a 3.92 AND DOWN carrier, hence my murmurings of getting shot of my 3.92 and UP D44 ARB's
also re visit the thread, the Jana person replied to my noobie britwat question :greggmo:
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I glaze over v easily, hence why I ask you lot :003:
so, that the end of that then - back to plan A :greggmo:
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I glaze over v easily, hence why I ask you lot :003:
so, that the end of that then - back to plan A :greggmo:
have you not any 3.92 and down stuff?
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I have no idea what you are talking about :lol_hitting:
I read his reply - it may as well be chinglish - I have only just understood what the feck goes on with axles and steering - brain capacity has been reached for this quarter :003:
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I have no idea what you are talking about :lol_hitting:
I read his reply - it may as well be chinglish - I have only just understood what the feck goes on with axles and steering - brain capacity has been reached for this quarter :003:
:003:
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carriers are only $60 each in the states buy new and know its right. :003:
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These would need to be narrowed down unless you wanted to go with full width
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dana-44-Front-Rear-axles-Jeep-4x4-off-road-/230744245214?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35b96dc3de (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dana-44-Front-Rear-axles-Jeep-4x4-off-road-/230744245214?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35b96dc3de)
Assuming I went full width, what else is needed to put these under a tj?
-
These would need to be narrowed down unless you wanted to go with full width
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dana-44-Front-Rear-axles-Jeep-4x4-off-road-/230744245214?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35b96dc3de (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dana-44-Front-Rear-axles-Jeep-4x4-off-road-/230744245214?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35b96dc3de)
Assuming I went full width, what else is needed to put these under a tj?
a whole load of bracketry, then depending on fluff content, either a D300 transfer case or atlas or stak, OR re tube the pumpkin the other way round, as Those axles are for a UK drivers side drop, and your TJ will be a UK pass side drop
-
My only worry would be spares, stock d44 bearings are easy to come by so that's a plus. If you were starting from scratch and needed lockers and everything it looks like a good way to go.
On a side note Poulsbo Washington is close to where I come from and it is right down the road from Randys Ring and Pinion. I would bet he has spent a good amount of time going over gears in there shop.
-
cheers,
Sounds like no matter what we do new brackets and perhaps transfer boxes are on the cards for a wrangler upgrade...
Are axles from the landrover line any use such as Defender 110, discovery, rangie of any use? Also easy to find upgrades and spares in the UK.
Any other commonly available uk axles to be considered? Transit?
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cheers,
Sounds like no matter what we do new brackets and perhaps transfer boxes are on the cards for a wrangler upgrade...
Are axles from the landrover line any use such as Defender 110, discovery, rangie of any use? Also easy to find upgrades and spares in the UK.
Any other commonly available uk axles to be considered? Transit?
nissan or yota, or ashcroft force 9's...
-
Found this whilst I was looking for something else:
http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/154_0708_weakest_to_strongest_axles/viewall.html (http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/154_0708_weakest_to_strongest_axles/viewall.html)
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now find worst to best lunchbox lockers please :003:
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now find worst to best lunchbox lockers please :003:
Well I can tell you which would be at the bottom of the list.
The Detroit EZ Locker. Pile of crap.
-
thats one off the list then :003:
Pa says richmond so I may have to take his sound advice unless someone says he is a nutter and gives a good (related) reason
-
richmond gear powertrax no slip its a better lockrite by the same folks
-
I got a powertrax in the shed waiting to get fitted, so I'm with the rotund fertile one :003:
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Chief?
http://www.4wd.com/Lock-Right-Locker-by-Richmond-for-Jeep.aspx?t_pn=KIT2410K (http://www.4wd.com/Lock-Right-Locker-by-Richmond-for-Jeep.aspx?t_pn=KIT2410K)
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Or this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWT-2410-LR/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWT-2410-LR/)
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have run a lock right in my cj3a for over 40.000 mile's never had a problem