Birty Dastards Jeep Club
Tech Forum => Workshop => Topic started by: Nexus on September 12, 2009, 10:23:48 AM
-
Does the earth lead on a winch run all the way back to the battery or does it earth to the chassis?
Cheers
Nick
-
Chassis IIRC
-
the best is back to the battery but i do both
-
BATTERY, BATTERY, BATTERY!
Did I mention, it should always go direct to the battery? I don't know about the whole Jeep range but the Cherokee battery to chassis earth strap is pityfully small and would melt like a fuse if a serious winch load was applied across it. Seriously, most forums even recommend upgrading the battery/alternator wiring even if you just bolt on a few spotlights or a high power ICE system so it definitely isn't suitable to ground a winch.
-
Best to go the Battery - also I believe they now use welding lance cabe!!!!
-
Thanks, I wanted to know to work out how much cable I was going to need.
Cheers
Nick
-
heavy duty jump start cables are the minimum. otherwise thin cables will heat and melt under high load
-
find a commercial parts dealer /electrician and ask them for an anderson lead, or the cable the use to make one.(even an old one would be good as its the fittings that fail on the trucks normally.
-
Negative to the battery is best. 35 or 50mm Welding cable is common. Will need a big crimper though. Ebay have a few suppliers or local welding supplier.
Are you installing an isolator/kill switch?
-
Was planning to install a kill switch, just not sure were I am going to put it at the moment.
Cheers
Nick
-
Here are a few random pictures I took whilst installing my winch.
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2421.jpg&hash=fba351252446f12dc472d3c6809f88ae27b36c3b)
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2422.jpg&hash=455b9b14e9c1c1a68b13ee22c7b2c868fb56034e)
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2485.jpg&hash=c9f11b571a7fbab13a15f52557dce0ed4fee5fbb)
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2477.jpg&hash=7e54f0d29de169a4ab38732a7cdbf768446db9bd)
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2476.jpg&hash=5b102fe22e49e148edac994099f016d2b7a47ad5)
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2478.jpg&hash=66a3d1e375c92ebdbd507bc8b624fc45a0470fb8)
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2479.jpg&hash=4c5a11f4287628637d3ea31e18f84b2064ca735b)
(https://birtydastards.com/frm/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi82.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj272%2Fmmore514%2FDSCN2480.jpg&hash=e412574948923c9b2611fe217104a549df7ab558)
-
Thanks Peter, I am in the process of fabricating the winch/bumper bit at the moment but need to order the winch in the week to ensure everything fits and then weld up the fairlead mounting. Might try and get the isolator somewhere near were yours is as well. I am taking plenty of photo's so will post some images when the build is done.
Warthog looking at welding cable it is definetely cheaper than the cable that the winch suppliers are selling, the 35mm looks likely the winch at full load can pull nearly 320amps and 35mm only appears rated at at 290amp 60% duty cycle is this okay as I cannot see the winch running at it maximum power that much. The winch in question will probably be a goodwinch TDS 9.5C at 9500lbs.
Cheers
Nick
-
On my rear winch, The cable from motor to solenoid pack is 25mm and the rest 35mm back to Battery. Have never had any problems. The other winches are all wired up with 35mm no problems.
If you were going for winch challenges, then i would say 50mm. Its starts to get a little awkward to run 50mm and above. Also the terminals are ruddy expensive, along with the solder to fill'em. 35mm vs 50mm comes down to if you wanna pay the extra, but not neccessary IMHO.
Something i would consider is an external isolator switch, near to the winch itself. So if something goes belly up (solenoid welds itself closed, winch draggin some it'lle Zuki into your truck scenario) you can hit the panic button quickly.
Dont think you can go wrong with superwinch.
Hope that helps
Are gonna be running 2 batteries? :003:
-
Just to add, the isolator Pete's using is only rated at 250 Amps. After witnessing a winch solenoid welding itself closed and continuing to run using one of these isolators which also welded itself closed, I decided I'd fit a heavier duty Isolator to mine.
Its rated at 600 Amps, so is well up to anything you can throw at it.
[attachment=1]
-
Lornaben, can you remember were you go the isolator from.
Cheers
Nick
-
Got mine from LSUK but they've gone bust locally :icon_sad:
This company lists them but I've never dealt with them.
Part Ref 60550
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/battconns/battisol.php (http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/battconns/battisol.php)
-
I was about to mention vehicle wiring products as I have dealt with them and they do all the wire ranges in lengths cut to order so whether you are fitting spotlights or a winch you only have to buy the cable you need. They also do a huge range of switches and terminals and when I had to return a faulty switch recently they dealt with it quickly under warranty.
-
buy good isolators i find they fail easy
-
........ the isolator Pete's using is only rated at 250 Amps. After witnessing a winch solenoid welding itself closed and continuing to run using one of these isolators which also welded itself closed............
It was supplied by Champion/Winch Solutions, the people who supplied the winch. Whilst I've not had any problems, should I swap it for a bigger one? :017:
-
Pete, the switch you have is rated at 250 Amps constant load and will take about 500 Amps for 5 second bursts (according to the specs I can find). This is for normal vehicle electrics, ie The big load is the starting cycle, 300-350 Amps for a few seconds and then 75 (ish) amps for normal running.
Your winch at max load will pull about 300 Amps (Warn 9.5xp pulls 480). This is a constant load and is greater than the rating of the isolator.
As the contact wears the likely hood of the switch welding itself closed becomes a real risk.
A friend had this happen to him a few years ago, the isolator had stuck/welded itself closed but it went unnoticed until a solenoid on the winch stuck closed, he turned the isolator key .... but nowt happened, the winch carried on winding in. Fortunately a bash with the wander lead unstuck the solenoid.
That's why I fitted the 600 Amp version (will take 2500 Amps for 5 secs) so in theory it should never fail to disconnect when I turn the key.
-
........ the isolator Pete's using is only rated at 250 Amps. After witnessing a winch solenoid welding itself closed and continuing to run using one of these isolators which also welded itself closed............
It was supplied by Champion/Winch Solutions, the people who supplied the winch. Whilst I've not had any problems, should I swap it for a bigger one? :017:
I have been running one of the 250amp rated for years.................But at CheapFest this year, it gave up the ghost and melted :icon_rolleyes: :jpshakehead: As been said previous, the HD Version would be a wise choice.
-
Lornaben, the isolator on the link above has a 250A @ 24v rating, does not mean this switch still only has a contact rating of 250 amps at 12 volts as the voltage rating is the value up to which the contact is capable of supressing the voltage or am I miss understanding something?
cheers
Nick
-
Visually the islolator Lornaben has mentioned internals are much more heavy duty than the smaller isolator switch.
Im not great at electrickery, so to answer you "Q" technically! Hopefully a grown up will come along :003:
-
Looks like they may have changed the spec slightly, mine was rated 600 Amp when I bought it.
Using the spec listed on the site,
250 Amps @ 24V = 6000 Watts
This means when converted to 12V you get the rating below
6000 watts @12V = 500Amps
:greggmo:
-
This may be useful,
To find Amps, Divide Watts by Volts. 100 Watt lamp @ 12 Volts = 8.3 Amps
To find Watts, Multiply Amps by Volts. 8.3 Amps @ 12 Volts = 99.6 Watts
To Get Volts, Divide Watts by Amps. 100 Watts @ 8.3 Amps = 12 Volts
:icon_winkle:
-
See, i knew a grown up would come along :003:
Buggered if i could find those conversion though :icon_rolleyes:
-
Lornaben,
I know that conversion, but am not sure that it can be directly applied to a contact rating, if you look at a relay for example at 250v Ac at 10amp it is only usually rated at 125vac 15 amps so their is not a direct scaling of the figures. But I am buggered if I can find a website that easily explains it. The contact rating is based around the amount of amperage that the contact can take before it rises 30/40 degrees c over the ambient conditons at the contact area I believe in which case it is very unlikely that the contact area can sink 500 amps. I will do some more searching though as an interim I will get the switch anyway.
Cheers
Nick
-
Your quite right Nick, theory and practice don't equate to the same thing.
The 250 Amp rating will be the minimum test rating, so 300 would be a reasonable assumption. Dropping the voltage will increase the Amperage but as you say not directly twice. Using that ideal, 500 Amps wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation at 12 Volts either. Don't forget it will sink 2500 Amps @ 24V albeit for a short period.
Don't loose sight of the fact its all a guide though, after all we're not talking precision electronics. :003:
-
Thanks, for the input its been a good discussion, have ordered the isolator + other bits, will be ordering the winch tomorrow morning. So may be able to electrocute myself on the weekend :icon_eek:
to be safe I will probably stand in a bucket of water whilst clutching a lightening conductor, whilst balancing on one leg :icon_biggrin:
Cheers
Nick
-
Did a bit more research, the load ratings are tested at 125% of listed rating. So at 24 Volts it will comfortably take 312 Amps.
I've even emailed Durite for a definitive answer for 12 Volts. :003:
-
Just realised they never replied, I'll be givin em a ring tomorrow :greggmo:
-
Already fitted a 250 amp one to the front of the jeep, stressful drilling holes in the body work though technically it's lightened the jeep until I bolted all the other crap on :003:
Cheers
Nick
-
OK, I had a reply email from Durite. They sent me their standard spec sheet for the isolator :icon_rolleyes:
I gave them ring and had chat with one of their technical geezer's ...
ME - What constant amperage will it take @12V ?
Geezer - 250 ....
ME - OK, I thought that was at 24V ?
Geezer - The defined spec is 250 Amps max at a max 24V ....
After a conversation about the conversions I posted earlier in the thread, Nick is right on the mark when it comes to converting ratings. You cant use them to estimate ratings based on different voltages. I decided to ask a few searching questions based on the 'defined spec' stating 2500 Amps for 5 seconds
He stated a few specs based on my questions but wouldn't put them in writing 'because it hasn't been bench-marked to define a controlled specification' (or very similar words)
These are the guidelines to what the isolator will take (in his qualified opinion, but not Durites) He also stated that these would all be with the isolator fully engaged before any load is put through it. If you try to use it as a switch the contacts will be damaged by arcing occurring as the contact engages and disengages.....
300 Amps - some considerable time, probably constantly.
400 Amps - At least 20 mins or so with a rest of about 20 minutes.
500 Amps - 10 - 15 mins or so with 20 mins to cool.
600 Amps - Several minutes with 20 mins to cool.
700 Amps - A few minutes at most
800 Amps - maybe a minute ..
So there we have it, not as good as I was led to believe by LSUK but still up to the job.
Interestingly, he said the lighter duty isolator is not really up to the job of isolating a winch ... :icon_eek: